Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Most Common Damage Done to any and all snowblowers is NOT preparing the engine and machine for the summer months.  The most necessary part of this is to prevent the unused engines one engine piston rings from rusting themself to the cylinder wall.  The solution is simple and easy if you posess the tools and the technical know how to change a spark plug.    Go to a local drugstore and buy a plastic syringe, tell them you need it to feed liquid medicine to a sick cat.  Then go home and remove the spark plug from the engine on your snowblower.  Fill the syringe with ordinary clean fresh motor oil, and empty it into the engine cylinder, then pull the starter cord a few times to distribute the oil on the cylinder walls and the piston rings, then  replace the spark plug.  Now Pull the cord slowly until it provides the maximum resistance, and then stop pulling.  This will effectively have closed all the engine valves and will keep the warm moist air of summer from getting into the engine cylinder.  This must be done every year once the threat of snow is gone.  April Fool's Day is a good day to remember if you've done such chores.

The other things are less important since they will not be so damaging, but drain all the gas out of the tank, the carburetor, and the lines.  Cover the machine with a plastic cover that allows air movement, like a piece of woven plastic or most housewraps, so long as yoy store the snowblower in a garage and out of the sun.  

Remember that snowblowers have no air filters so it is common for moisture-water to be injested during a snow storm.  For this reason I put the machine in the garage and run it until the gas runs out once I have shut off the fuel line.  My old snowblower required that I install an In-Line fuel shut-off valve because the $ 1100.00 bucks I paid wasn't sufficient for MTD to have included one when they built my Sears Craftsman Snowblower.  So if your engine has no fuel shut off, you too should install one yourself.    Oh, and always use gas that has sufficient fuel stabilizer in it, and always use fuel that is less thyan six months in the can even if it does have stabilizer in it.  Thenattempting to start the snowblower when you awake to the blizzard won't throw you into a state of panic.

New_Yorker wrote:
Thank you New Yorker.  Good information.  I am going to start being more responsible with my toys.

I use an oiler instead of a syringe.

I prefer the disposable way.  Oil is messy, hard to clean up, and best when not handled.   The syringe is like 50 cents, your method would be OK for a shop doing it all the time.  I do this once a year then chuck the cheapo plastic syringe.  

Good grief!

I haven't done that ever. 

Strange thing is that I've never had an issue with rusted rings nor lubrication related failure for my 30+ engines in 30+ years.   They all run well and last pretty much for ever.   

I have to be one lucky s.o.b.! 

A can of fogging oil for $5 is just as good and easier...

I have watched many snowblower operators using the clutch  that operates the  impeller-auger , every few minutes  while doing their driveway, creating that "squeakrump" sound each time they engage the clutch creating unnecessary  belt wear.  I like to keep it engaged until I finish.   I use a plastic (easily removable) tie on it until I am finished

As for the drive clutch, My Husqvarna is Hydrostatic, so I only have to engage it once to send power to the hydro. Forward , reverse and speed is controlled only by the drive speed contro; lever.

It's an interesting point, about belt wear. However, tying the handle down creates a significant potential safety hazard, where the augers never stop. You couldn't even stop them instantly if you suddenly ran over something hidden under the snow. It may be fine for you, if you're careful, but I don't know that I'd suggest that in general.

To reduce the sudden load on the belt when engaging the augers, you could slowly squeeze the lever, which would let it speed up the augers more gradually, rather than "dropping the clutch" by just quickly squeezing the lever, and getting that sound.

I've worked on hundreds of engines.  The last one I fixed was a 1970s-80s Tecumseh Eager 1 mower that pulled out of a scrap heap.   Around twelve years ago, my old neighbour who owned the mower, told me that it stopped running so I gave him a healthy old Lawn Boy that I had as a spare.  The Tecumseh had sat in the scrap pile for all that time and was covered in leaves and pine needles.  I had a mower deck that needed an engine so I decided to see what the problem was with the old Tecumseh.  It was a rainy day at camp so I brought the engine into my garage and pulled the head off.  Clean as a whistle, no dreaded rusted rings, everything turned over smoothly, valves worked fine so I put it back together and started looking at the likely source of the problem.  The carb.  After a thorough cleaning, I had the machine running like a top. 

I've worked on a lot of old two and four cycle engines.  Some over 40 years of age.  Many very much neglected.  I've yet to see an issue with rusted rings other than on an engine left out in the elements with it's head off.   Might be an issue if one is in a very salty and damp environment.  However, if not, the effort of oiling the cylinder is generally a waste of time.  All that will be achieved is a smoky and possibly  difficult start up in most cases.  

snowmachine wrote:
+1 on the oil can.  Lets face it if you work on any of your own equipment you already have this laying around.

royster wrote:
I made a little D Clip that is attached handlebars, after i press the lever for the auger i flip up the clip and it holds the auger engaged so i don't have to hold it down.  It then gives me a free hand to work the chute when necessary without having to stop.

I always thought the most common damage was bucket corrosion. Shame, because it's very easy to prevent.

I use a tie wrap to slip over the auger drive lever.  Easy on, easier off.   I know that many think it's a safety compromise and, to some extent it might be.  However, there are a number of other "stupid factors" that would come into play to make it an unsafe practice.   First and foremost, one should not have pets, children or people in the path of the machine.  One should also be aware that the path is known to be clear of obstructions whenever possible.  Keeping areas that will be cleared tidy will go a long way toward preventing the auger from ingesting undesired items.  

Before I bought the SS machine for my deck, I used to park the Simplicity at the bottom of the steps running full throttle with the auger engaged and held in position with the tie wrap.  I'd shovel snow from the deck, down the stairs right into the waiting bucket so that the blower could throw the snow away from the bottom of the stairs toward the lawn.   Worked great for years and I'm still here to tell the tale! 

I have also set my 2 stage at the bottom of the step to the deck running wide open with the auger engaged. I used a snow scoop or blade to clean off my deck , feeding the snow to the auger. It has always worked well;

I always made sure that no child  person or pet  was around.   Maybe this was an unsafe practice,   I don't do that anymore since I purchased my single stage, It clears off the deck  very well.

carlb wrote:

Need to see pictures of it please !!!

Can someone explain this to me?
im sure there is a good reason for this, but I dont understand it:

When you are running the snowblower normally (or any small gas engine, lawnmower, etc)
isnt there *always* oil on the cylinder wall?
thats how engines are lubricated right?

So what is the point of removing the spark plug and adding in this "extra" oil?
isnt there oil in there already? coating the cylinder wall?
the point of this procedure I do not understand..seems like there is oil in there already..
can someone explain?
thanks,
Scot

sscotsman wrote:
The oil is in the bottom of the engine.  The top of the cylinder doesn't have oil unless you have an issue with the rings leaking.  The idea is just to stop the top half from rusting since if you get corrosion on the walls and then run the engine you could scratch it.  Having the piston at TDC for storage means that the piston is covering the entire cylinder and protecting it.  It could be compared to a hydraulic cylinder.  When not in use you should retract it completely so the bare metal isn't exposed to the elements.

sscotsman wrote:
Scot,

The oil control rings are in the lower grove of the piston and are designed to scrape the oil off the cylinder wall and return it to the sump. The top two groves have the compression rings and they don't normally see any oil if the oil rings are doing there job.  Adding oil through the spark plug hole will coat the top of the piston and in turn get pushed into the compression ring groves when you pull the engine over a few times.  Stopping the engine at TDC on compression stroke will ensure that both the valves are closed preventing moisture or critters from entering through the intake or exhaust. 

hirschallan wrote:

It is just made out of 1/4" copper round stock

About oiling the cylinder......

How many participant do this for car, truck, tractor, generator, motorcycle engines that are either put into storage or unused for months/years on end? 

How many participants have taken apart an engine that they had put into long term storage?

How many participants who've actually opened up an engine that was stored reasonably well, without oil in the cylinder found the rings rusted to the cylinder?

The answers should give us some idea of how necessary/unnecessary this procedure really is.

Waaaaay to many people giving out dire warnings of essential maintenance that is really not required.   I have to wonder if these people even own basic tools to do mechanical work?

When someone has an imaginary snowblower it is not any more work for that  person. 

MN_Runner wrote:
Good point.

I never considered the fantasy mechanics cluttering up the pages with their infinite knowledge. 

Will the real David from NJ please step forward?

As a rule I don't add oil or fog the cylinder in my OPE. However I always fog the cylinders in my outboard motors for the reason that all the marine service centers do it and it is directed in all the owners manuals. I don't think that fogging can hurt anything but over doing will certainly cause a smokey start up. In the world of model airplanes both the 2 and 4 stroke engines require an after run oil in the cylinder. The 4 stroke engines have valves but lack an oil sump so they use 2 stroke fuel for lubrication. These are Dykes ring equipped engines with ABC metallurgy (aluminum,brass and chrome). There is upwards of 5% nitro in the fuel along with alcohol and either castor or synthetic oil or a blend of both. I can tell you from experience that failure to use after run oil to fog the engine will seriously effect engine longevity and performance. I'm wondering if with the ever increasing percentages of alcohol in pump gas and it's ability to draw moisture if fogging isn't something to consider when storing seasonal use OPE. Marc

That's an interesting point. My 2-stroke, glow-plug engine in my RC truck runs on fuel that's primarily methanol, if memory serves, with 15-20% nitro, and I think it's synthetic oil. As you said, I used after-run oil after every use, per the manual, due to the water-absorbing qualities of the fuel. I haven't run it in a long time (~6 years or so). I tried the engine recently, it's been stored in my basement, which is pretty dry (I run a dehumidifier in the summer). The engine had always turned freely when I'd checked it before, but this time it wouldn't move. I was afraid it had finally rusted up. But with slowly working it back and forth, I got it to start moving (I think the oil was just sticky, it never felt like anything was grinding or gritty), then warmed it with a hair dryer, and then I could turn it over normally. Added some more oil through the plug hole, and put it away again. The after-run oil had me a bit nervous this time, but it seems to have done its job.

I probably won't start adding oil to my OPE when I put it away. But it wouldn't hurt to leave it on the compression stroke, at least (that takes 2 seconds). I use stabilizer in everything. But I might try also running machines dry before putting them away. I typically just leave the stabilized gas in them.

Before I put my 69 camaro away for the winter I fill the gas tank with gas and stabil,  warm it up good, fog the engine, drain and replace the motor oil, disconnect the battery, remove the air cleaner and duct tape a plastic bag over the carburator and both exhaust pipes.

Carl

I don't even do my outboard engines.  If I lived in a salt water environment and stored the engine in a salty damp location, I might consider it.  However, if I don't see corrosion/oxidization issues on the exterior of the engine, I'm certainly not going to be too concerned about the internals which are much more protected. 


There are numerous directions in manuals for all machines that seldom if ever are done by owners.  Look at every manual you own and tell me how many of the excessively numerous maintenance instructions you actually carry out?   Personally, I feel that a lot of the directions in the maintenance schedules of manuals is to intimidate owners to make them bring the machine to a service department.  Thus generating revenue for dealerships and the industry in general. 

When I was young and naive, I did the oil the cylinder(s) thing until I had far too many machines that the process was far too onerous.  So about twenty years ago I simply stopped doing it.   If I add up all of the cylinders I would need to oil, it would come to approx. 60 or more.  

Over the years, I have opened up some machines for various reasons and have found absolutely no ill effects from ceasing oiling the cylinder.  I've worked on old outboards owned by people who shouldn't own them due to mechanical ineptitude and never noticed anything unusual in them either.  One that comes to mind was a 1964 Chrysler 20 h.p. outboard  that had a head gasket so bad that when I pulled the plug on the top cylinder, it was working like a water pump.  Took it apart to fix the head gasket.  Guess what?  No rust in the cylinder despite the fact that it had been passing water through it. 

There are far too many people advocating maintenance procedures that bear little, if no consequence if not performed.  We're constantly being bombarded with dire warnings and maintenance failure fears that bear very little importance other than generating revenue for the industries that will benefit from unnecessary and wasteful practices. 

Experience has taught me many valuable lessons.  One of them is to develop the confidence to be able to determine what really matters and what doesn't. 

 

Geno,

I spent in excess of 15,000 dollars to build the engine in my 69 camaro and while there may be no ill effects to not taking some precautions,  It only cost me a can of fog and three plastic bags and some duct tape to give myself a little peace of mind.

It really doesn't take me long to do it since i do it the last time i take  it out for the year, which is normally mid to late November.  It will come out to play again in late March / early April.

This year I wish i had waited a little longer to put it away since it has been very warm here up until the last few days.

carlb wrote:
Looks good to me.

Nice job there. Thanks for the picture. Its now self explanatory.

I have to Laugh at the negative remarks when I did no more than post a basic instruction that was part of the owners manual for every snowblower I ever owned.   Snow blowers don't have air filters as a rule, they do injest water and moisture in normal operation to a far greater degree than say a lawn mower, and the rust does get to the piston rings after years of improper storage.  Oh, and small engine repir is not only for you Einstein's, normal people do it all the time, we just read the manuals before we do, unlike you.

New_Yorker wrote:
I'll tell you what. 

If you knew what you were doing, you wouldn't be doing it.

thanks for the replies to my earlier question about the "why" of fogging..
makes sense now..
thanks,
Scot

New_Yorker, you're right, snow blowers do operate in a different environment, and I'm sure they do ingest some of the snow that's in the air. But, at the same time, the combustion chamber is awfully hot. I have to expect that any moisture that gets sucked in, even if it's just as you're shutting down, boils off/evaporates very quickly, and doesn't hang around. Moisture that comes in during storage, especially if outdoors in a damp environment, with the engine's valves/ports open, may be a different story, of course. Though my experience (for what it's worth) hasn't shown any problems from that.

I realize you're just helping to clarify what's in the manuals. And I'd agree there's no harm in doing it. I'd add a fuel shutoff to my machine if it didn't already have one. I will be adding a fuel filter, since that strikes me as another very inexpensive way to avoid problems caused by a piece something in your gas, which could leave you with a dead machine during a blizzard. If the plastic Tecumseh Snow King tanks (for, say, the 8 hp engines) have built-in fuel filters, that would be good to know, before I add one myself.

But I think there are a number of other fairly-easy aspects of snowblower maintenance (besides oiling the cylinders) which will also help make the machine last longer. Such as lubricating the appropriate parts of the machine, spinning the augers on the shaft (with the shear bolts removed) every once in a while to ensure they haven't rusted in-place (ideally also greasing them, if possible), replacing the scraper bar and skid shoes before they wear out and you start grinding away the underside of the bucket, etc.

aa335 wrote:

You read my mind

I would think that one reason that marine engines need to be fogged is because most engine are in a fairly closed and confined space.  Either below decks or under an engine cover that is exposed to the bilge area.  Unless the bilge area is kept completely dry the whole time the boat is in storage.  The engine will be sitting in a damp, trapped air space environment.  With no air movement.  Condensation is also a real issue.  Cold steel surrounded by warm moist air will condensate like crazy.  Just some thoughts.

If fogging small engines was really important.  Then lawn mower engines should be fogged as well.  They spend most of their lives sitting. 
There is never any moisture in an engine cylinder after it has been running and then shut down.  It doesn't really matter how much snow it may have sucked in.  The heat from the engine will vaporize any snow or moisture that may have entered. 

" Most Common Damage Done to any and all snowblowers is NOT preparing the engine and machine for the summer months. "

The above quote from New Yorkers opening statement is what I find comical. 

"Most Common Damage" in particular, is not only comical, it's wrong.  From what I've seen, I'd say it's the least common source of engine damage because in all of my years of working on numerous small engines, I've never come across it.  On the contrary, overheating from blocked ventilation/cooling systems and running engines with low or no oil  likely claim far more engines than not oiling cylinders for storage.  

You have to excuse me.  I have a short fuse when I see people issuing  dire warnings for marginal concerns. 

  

I would agree, it isn't the "most common damage".  There is nothing wrong with fogging an engine if a person feels compelled to do so.  But the way his statement is worded it makes it sound as if there is a real reason and need to do so.  Secondly, unless your engine has a cast iron bore (Honda's are, but most are not ).  The only parts that can even develop rust are the rings themselves.  The cylinder walls are aluminum and so are the pistons. 

What exactly is "fogging" an engine?

I thought the Tecumseh Snow King engines had cast-iron bores? At least the 8hp, L-head versions, which are the only ones I'm familiar with. Those engines seem to have been used on an awful lot of machines. I'm not saying that necessitates fogging, just that I thought cast-iron bores were somewhat common.

And borat, you're right, checking/changing the oil is such a simple thing, but I doubt it happens very often for a lot of machines. I've been using Mobil 1 5W-30 in mine (aforementioned Snow King 8hp L-head), but I don't know if that's the best option out there.

I have never done an fogging or adding oil to the cylinder on an OPE engine prior to long term storage.  Never had any rust issues.  Just stored the engine by slowly pull the starter until the valves are closed. 

Most of my OPE engine problems are carb, fuel line, fuel filter related issues.  Dirty fuel, fuel left in carburetor too long, etc...

The dreaded "failure to oil the cylinder" and another all time favourite "water condensation in the oil scourge"   are two of the most over used dire engine warning threats that the ignorant and those with OCD constantly flog. 

It's tiresome to read about these "imminent engine destroyers" over and over when in reality, the possibility from either is negligible.   What annoys me most is that the people who post such warnings obviously have little or no mechanical experience.  If they did, they wouldn't be issuing such nonsense. 

By the way, RedOct is correct.  There are a lot of engines out there with cast iron cylinders.  Some in snow blower applications and many in other OPE.  Many B&S Snow engines are Kool Bore with aluminum bore but there are also some B&S Snow engines that have cast bores.  Pretty much all of the Chinese engines have cast bores as well.

In making this statement I was only meaning it to refer to snowblowers engines.   "Secondly, unless your engine has a cast iron bore (Honda's are, but most are not )"
I believe that only some of 8hp and larger engines have cast iron sleeves (could be wrong about that).  And I think that the majority of 4 stroke snowblowers currently in use have smaller engines than that.  Probably 5hp. and some 7s.
On the subject of water in cylinders.
I just yesterday pulled apart a 11hp Honda that had the air cleaner left off.  Water got into the cyl. and sat for a while.  Had to beat the piston out by going in through the hole in the case for the low oil alert sensor.  Run a stainless steel rod through the hole.  Position it on the bottom of the rod cap and hit it with a hammer.  Not how it's usually done, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.
Had to take the rings out in pieces with a fabricated tool they were absolutely glue into the grooves.

Yeah.  That's completely understandable. 

Leaving an access for direct water entry into the engine will always result in problems unless it's caught very quickly.  However, If that engine had sat for twenty years covered with no chance of water getting into it, you would not have had that problem.  

I've fished a couple outboards from the water immediately after total submersion.  I remember an old 1959 12 h.p. Viking a guy had mounted on a makeshift motor mount on a pontoon boat he was building.  He only put in two bottom bolts to hold a piece of 2x10 lumber as a motor mount onto the back of the pontoon boat.  We fired up the motor and started to head onto the lake.  Fortunately, we were in shallow water.  The guy cranked the throttle, the engine snapped the piece of lumber in half and toppled into the drink running at full throttle.   It's funny how the mind works under situations like that.  As the engine was going into the lake, the fuel line was dragging the fuel tank with it.  For some reason, I grabbed the fuel can thinking it might save the engine.  Not.  I did keep the fuel tank from going in the water though.  We were still in shallow water an managed to pole back to the engine and fish it out of the lake.  We immediately pulled the plugs, laid it on the ground and pulled it until we cleared the water out of it.  Then we put it on a saw horse, heated the plugs with a torch, put them in, hooked up the fuel, pulled a few times and it fire right up.  Amazing considering that it had point/condenser ignition.  I was surprised that the engine didn't bend a connecting rod when it sucked in the water! 

That engine is still running to this day, 50 years old!

borat wrote: I am quite surprised that it did not brake or bend a rod if it was running at full throttle when it went into the drink.

carlb wrote:
Same here. 

I use to own that engine and sold it to the guy who put it on his pontoon boat. 

Strange thing is that very engine had once bent a connecting rod on me coming home just before dark after an evening of walleye fishing about 30 years ago.  

My luck, I was at the far end of a lake three miles from camp, it was getting dark and as usual, there was nobody else out there but me.  The engine calfed on me about two miles from camp.  The good news was that it was fairly calm, I had a good set of oars, was at the age where I could have rowed for hours and still had a couple cool brews with me.  It was pitch black by the time I got to the camp and the folks were just getting their boats ready for a search party.   Needless to say they were very happy to see my boat pull up to the dock.  Not happy to see me so much.  More like joy from not having to search a fairly big lake in the dead of night.   

I put a new connecting rod and piston in that engine and it's been running great ever since.    

OT...New Yorker. Mind posting some pics of the unit with the light mods, side skids, etc.....

Actually the engine is aluminum with a steel cylinder liner and not as jrtrebor wrote:

mobiledynamics wrote:
I am about to go out and take it out of summer storage, and clean it, then I'll take a few photo's and see how to post them.