Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

This is actually getting more confusing for me by the day, LOL.  I'm not sure that I know how to correctly check for AC voltage.  Or what kind of readings to expect to see.
I thought I did but the readings I tried to take this morning seemed to be all over the place.  And the readings between the two different coil wires are quite a bit different.  I was putting black probe to ground, red probe to coil wire.  Meter in VAC mode.  I'm just trying to be careful and not do something I shouldn't and burn something up, coils, rectifiers.

I hooked up the new Bridge Rectifier had a battery connected in the system.  Meter in VDC mode.
Black probe to ground red probe to solenoid + terminal and or battery + post.    At idle reading -14.2V 
Black probe to ground red probe to solenoid + terminal and or battery + post.     Full throttle reading - 17.2V

Removed Bridge Rectifier and hooked up borrowed Honda Rectifier, battery connected in the system. 
With a wire hooked to the B + terminal (left terminal) on the Rectifier.   At idle reading - 13.5V
With a wire hooked to the B + terminal on the Rectifier.    Full throttle reading - 16.8V

Second test with Honda Rectifier
Wire was moved to the IGN. terminal (center terminal) on the Rectifier.    At idle reading - 13.2V
Full throttle reading - with the wire hooked to the IGN. terminal on the Rectifier.    Full throttle reading - 13.1V
The other end of the wire that I'm talking about above is connected to the solenoid + terminal.  There are no wires coming from either rectifier going directly to the battery.  If the wire was connected
to the battery + post instead of solenoid + terminal could and or would that change the readings?

Can, and will the output voltage from the coils vary even when the engine RPM is constant?  I guess what I get a little confused about is whether both coils are independent of each other.
 Each putting out a certain amount of voltage at a given RPM.  How and or what happens when you combine them by connecting them to the Bridge rectifier or the Honda rectifier/ regulator.
I realize explaining this may be way more involved or over my head.  I get some of it, some of it I don't.  Was hoping to learn something out of this but I seem to be getting a little more confused
than I was.  I think I've learned that a Bridge Rectifier does nothing more than change or convert AC voltage to DC voltage.
Is 13 + volts enough to keep the battery charged when I'm running my small light.  I don't recall what the wattage is, but I know it's less than 50.  And the charging coil is supposed to be 10A.

The voltage will be the same if you measure at the B+ connection or the Solenoid+ connection. Will the voltage vary at a constant RPM? It can depending on what kind of regulator/rectifier is used. I have no idea what the IGN terminal does. Do you have a Honda part number for it? perhaps I could do a little searching for schematics using one and figure it out.

JimmyM wrote:
From looking at a wiring diagram for the Honda tractor (HT3810) that my friend has, which is where the borrowed rectifier came from.  It shows one wire coming from the rectifier going to the key switch.
On it's way there is a tap off that wire going to a fuse block.  The fuse block sends power to fuel pump relay, fuel pump other accessories.  The B+ wire coming off the Rectifier goes to the Batt. terminal
on the key switch as well. On it's way there is a tap off that wire that goes to the battery. Third terminal in that row on the Rectifier goes to ground.

So I'm guessing that maybe the rectifier is designed to send different voltages out of the B+ terminal and the IGN terminal?  One feed or output to the battery and one to the accessories.
I have been using this wiring diagram and then looking at the tractors wiring to try and sort things out.  It's the only way I knew how to do it.  There are no diagrams for just my engine.
Or drawings showing what the rectifier terminals are supposed to be connected to.

The Honda part number for the Rectifier that is supposed to be used with my engine is 31600-ZE2-861. I verified that through Honda using all my engine codes (QNE2 & GCANK) and through
another parts distributor.  There is one for sale on Ebay that also verified it and showed the manufacturer and Part #  Shindengen SH586B-12.
The rectifier that I am borrowing is made by the same manufacturer but has a different part number SH561-12.  I went to the Manufacturers web site and found the borrowed rectifier part number (SH561-12).  
Along with a connecting/wiring diagram for that rectifier.  (I didn't see a listing for my specified rectifier. SH586B-12)
I'm sure it's showing what I'd like to know, but I don't know what a lot of the symbols mean. So I don't know what it's telling me.  I'm sure you would know. 
It's listed under
Single Phase Regulator Rectifier Lineup (Full Wave)
Shunt Style Regulator Matrix
The borrowed rectifier ( SH561-12) seems to be very similar to what Honda calls for on my engine (SH586B-12).  Except that the one rating is a little lower @ 8A instead of 10A.
I believe that the Connecting Diagram for it is further down the page.  Where it says
If you wouldn't mind having a look and telling me what it say's and what you think I'd appreciate it.
Both rectifiers have five terminals. One row of two terminals, for the 2 coil wire hook ups.  One row of three terminals, a ground wire terminal, and two voltage output terminals.
Thanks everyone for your comments and help. I am lost when it comes to some of this stuff. I just don't know the basics of electronic components and what they do or how they work.

Well. The SH561-12 is a combination regulator and rectifier. So a simple bridge rectifier can't be substituted.
The page you link to is formatted such that the diagrams shown are for the part numbers listed above them. The section for the SH561 doesn't show a diagram. The ones under it (SH734, et al) are a different type of regulator (Series vs Shunt), so their diagrams can't be used.
I did some searching on SH561 but found few results. I'm going to try looking up the other part numbers and see if I can find a wiring diagram. It may be that the IGN terminal needs to be tied to B+ since your diagram shows it connected to the ignition switch. But I can't be sure.

Edit: I found a wiring diagram for a water craft that uses the SH589, but it only shows 4 wires connecting to it.

Thanks for taking a look.  If I could get my friend to sell me his tractor I could plan on using the SH561 that I'm borrowing.  I guess?  From what I could make out from the spec sheets it looked like it might be a little
under rated (8A) for my 10A coils.  But I'm not sure whether that would really make any difference.  I'm never going to have anything on the blower that would pull a constant 10A or even close to that.  Keeping the battery charged, running the small I believe 25W light and maybe running my chute control motors.  But they draw very little as well, and it's just a momentary draw.
 I have a wiring diagram for the Honda tractor (HT3810) that the SH561 Rec. came off of.  But the scan of the diagram was so poor that it's hard to make out things out, it's just not a clear and sharp diagram.
It also doesn"t show exactly what terminal are what on the rectifier. It just shows five wire in a row and where they are routed to.  Not much help.

Don't know whether this was just a typo.
" Edit: I found a wiring diagram for a water craft that uses the SH589, but it only shows 4 wires connecting to it".
Should be SH586B don't know what the B stand for.
Thanks again I really appreciate your help.

jrtrebor wrote:
Nope. Not a type-o. The SH589 is listed in the table in your link right above the SH561. I was thinking that if the others were shunt style regulators, a diagram of an SH589 might help since google hits on sh561 were few. I get a lot of Kawasaki hits when searching.

I found a manual for the HT3810 on line. http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/pdf/manuals/31750713.pdf

It looks like the far left is ground, the next 2 are the coil connections, the 4th is the IGN terminal and the far right is the Battery. It may be that the IGN terminal needs to be connected to the B+ connection when running. That's the only reason I can think of that the IGN wire goes to the Ignition switch. In the diagram it also shows it (IGN) connection to the B+ feed to the fuse block lending more credence to my theory that the IGN terminal needs B+ to function when running.

JimmyM wrote:
Didn't know on the typo, thought Id ask.
What could happen to the coils, rectifier etc.   If the ground wire (far left)  and the Battery (far right) were hooked up wrong?   In others words the Battery terminal got hooked to ground and the ground terminal got hook
to battery.  The reason I ask is that when I look at the plug that plugs into the rectifier on the Honda tractor.
 The far left terminal wire is white -  the center terminal wire is blk with yellow stripe - and the far right terminal wire is black. That's different than what the wiring diagram seems to show.  I realize that there is really
no way of knowing whether your seeing the plug from the front or back in the wiring diagram.  So I have just be assuming that I should go by what I see on the tractors plug.

 Far left (1st) terminal   Center (2nd) terminal.  Far right (3rd) terminal is hooked to ground.    (Battery is hooked in system).

This morning when I check things again I got different readings than last night. The center 2nd terminal was putting out less than last night when I checked it.
Reading off 1st terminal @ idle 14.5V........    @ full throttle 17.8V.     Reading started at at 16.5V when I first made connection then built up to 17.8V

Reading off 2nd terminal (center) @ idle 12.5V.........  @ full throttle 12.5V   Last night 13.5V idle   13.5V full T

Neither set of readings seem to be optimal.  The 14.5v is ok but the 17V is to high.
The 12.5V would be ok but I'm not sure that the 12.5V is enough to keep the battery charged with the light on.  But maybe it would be.  The engine fires right up so I really don't need a whole lot from the battery.

.

It doesn't make sense that the voltage in the one test was 13.5 at idle and only 12.8 at full throttle, unless the voltage regulator is sensing that the battery if full and is cutting back the charge rate.  maybe try the test again with the light on.   If the charge rate with the light on and the battery connected, while not the idle voltage 12.8 should still maintain the battery.   Good luck


Carl

carlb wrote:
carlb. I revised some of the readings that I posted in my previous post.  I do get readings that seem to fluctuate not sure what that is about.

I think it's time for me to end this thread or at least stop posting new information.  I need to keep reminding myself that the Rectifier that I am using is off a Honda garden tractor.  It has it's own electrical system.
Lights,switches, relays, fuel pump, safety switches etc.
That rectifier is not the correct one called for by Honda for my engine and coil combination.  So expecting to see voltage number that are what I think they should be is kind foolish on my part. It's not the correct rectifier.
I'm getting at least 12+ volts at idle and full throttle out of the center terminal.  That should at least keep me from discharging the battery to a level below where it won't start the blower.  I would hope.  Running my light won't put much drain on the system.
Maybe I will be able to find the correct rectifier at a price I can justify buying.  Normally they are around $120.00 to $140.00.  I only paid $130.00 for the engine. I've got a lawn mower junk yard about 20 miles from me.
I will probably take a run by there and see what I can find.  Thanks for everyone's help, I've learned somethings.  Now I know enough to fill a shot glass, LOL. 
I'm still open to any and all comments that you knowledgeable posters may have.

Check the battery voltage with the engine off, it should be around 12.5 12.6 volts.  If you can maintain 12.5 volts with the engine running and the light on you will probably be ok.