Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

It's in decent condition, new rubber impeller, scraper bar and overall good shape. The guy I bought it from said it had been professionally serviced 2 years ago but had seen little use since then as he decided to hire a plow guy to do his average residential driveway. I could not get it to start after adding some fresh fuel that I brought with me so I offered him $ 40.00 and said OK. - he had it listed for $ 75.00 on CL. I'm pretty sure he left some old, unstabilized fuel in there and it turned into varnish.

I removed the top and back covers and dropped the fuel bowl. It looked like a bad batch of applesauce in there so I cleaned it out and shot the carb with carb cleaner and reinstalled the bowl. It fired up for a few seconds and then died. A good carb cleaning appears to be in order and I'm wondering if I can do this with the carb installed or is it easier/better to remove it from the engine (Suzuki 47P)? I've never removed a carb before but am mechanically inclined and would like to get this operational for next winter.

I remember Borat discussing a cleaning of the jets using wires to remove any build up inside that could cause fuel starvation. I have never done this so any suggestions or tips will be very much appreciated.

What is the factory model number of your machine?  

When put back together, drain through the bowl to see if you get a decent flow.

You can keep it running by squirting in gas but can you now prime it to keep it running?

You should be able to prime many times and get gas in the throat.  If not and you have no air leaks which you don't then something is fuzzy in the needle area.

Is there a jet at the base of the center tube by the cutout part of the black collar?  It would be a small screw-in part.  That should be there and very clean.

I would verify float operation in a glass before I bought anything.   Also in the sink, put a small length of gas line on and fill the line with water when the blow is held up with your finger.  It should hold the water and when you drop the bowl flow freely.  Does that flow look about that you get when you drain with the gas drain on the bottom of the carb bowl?  It should be close.  You should be able to lift the carb up to let the float drop and get flow.  After putting the carb back into the water flow should stop.  The needle should never stick and what you want to look for.

When sitting in the glass on the glass rim you should be able to leave it for an hour with no leak. 

trouts: Model number is 38430, s/n  is 7908851. This indicates a 1997 date of manufacture.

The prmer bulb works mechanically, but will not provide fuel to the carb as it should. It is brand new as the original was missing so I bought and installed a new one. Not sure why the primer does not work as it should. The engine will stay running as long as I continue to spray fuel directly into the carb throat.

Look at the previously posted pictures of the carb tube base - I do not see any type of jet on or near the black plastic collar. The only one is located inside the tube and can be remove by backing it out like a screw. That is very clean and the orifices are open.

I'm going to replace the needle, needle seat and float as suggested by nipper and see if that cures the problem. It seems as though the fuel cannot get past these areas to feed the carb and keep her running. It's hard to see into the needle seat but it looks like the rubber is damaged in one area which may be causing the fuel feed problems. I assume that the cost of these parts is much less expensive than replacing the whole carb (+/- $100.00) so I'll take a chance and see what happens.

Question - how do I remove the seat without damaging the carb? It appears to be made of brass and rubber and is pressed into the hole where it belongs. Do I try and grap it with needle nose pliers or use a screw inserted into the opening and pull it out that way? Just not sure what is the best way to remove this so I can replace it.

Any other suggestions or thoughts are very welcome.

"The prmer bulb works mechanically, but will not provide fuel to the carb as it should." That's an awful big coincidence. Too big. I would find out why that's not working before doing anything else, it could very well be another symptom of why your carb isn't getting fuel.

FrankMA wrote:

Frank......in regards to the SEAT...if its brass then l usually never replace them...of course if looks damaged then yes l would replace it... if not just leave in...most important is the NEEDLE & FLOAT get replaced.....and make sure its VERY clean where the needle moves up and down spray carb cleaner in there and use a pick or small screwdriver with a rag and give a good clean just be careful not the scratch the carb.

as for the primer it will not squirt fuel in the carb if theres no fuel in the bowl. 

Well I downloaded the parts manual which has a great blow up and breakdown of the entire carb assembly. Called my local dealer and here's what the replacement costs are for the following:

Complete Carb Assembly..............................$ 163.34 (YIKES!!!)

Carb Rebuild Kit..............................................$  68.74

Needle Valve Seat Kit....................................$  28.64   DING...DING...DING - we have a winner here!

I'm pretty sure it's the o-ring inside the seat thats either all gummed up or damaged. It's very hard to see inside the seat area but from what I can see, the o-ring appears to be damaged or torn somehow. The parts guy said it can be removed by using a dental type pick or applying compressed air to the fuel inlet which will force out the seat. At any rate, I'm going to give this a shot and see if this solves the problem. This area seems to be the bottle neck in terms of fuel distribution so I'm confident that this may do the trick. I going to try and get to this in the next day or so and will keep you posted. Hopefully this will resolve the problem and I can get this operational and still be well under $100.00 for this gem.

FrankMA wrote:
Yowser!!!  If these prices are for Toro, I think parts for my Honda is pretty cheap in comparison.

I hope those at least includes assembly and warranty. 

No wonder why people go to big box stores and buy disposable OPE these days.

Sad thing is, there are people who would pay that much to get it fixed.

Sad thing is, there are people who gives away their snowblower to the local dealer.  That dealer puts in $50 worth of parts and labor to get it running, turns around and sell used for $300.

Sad thing is, there are people who think they're pretty smart for doing that. 

Sometimes ignorance is bliss, most of the time, it's going to cost you.  That's why it's always good to know just a little bit to be dangerous. 


Anyways, hope you get that machine fixed up ready to run for next winter.  It's good to see the progression of the troubleshooting and solutions.

You’re going with replacing parts which could work.  It looks like the parts are fine but just taking things apart and putting them back could cure things.  I don’t think they will make a difference. 

 

For reference:

From what’s been posted it seems the block is behind the seat in the area between the seat and the fuel inlet.  Replacing the float and needle won’t affect those.  Removing the seat would.  But that’s a possible problem. 

 

The reason is dealing with the brass insert.

 

On your model the factory puts in the seat and then puts in the brass insert.  The seat shape is a small doughnut over a large doughnut.  The large doughnut part is the size of the needle hole which is also the size of the brass insert OD.  The smaller doughnut is the size of the brass part ID. 

The seat goes in then the brass insert.  The insert covers and holds down the seat large part of the seat.  The smaller part ends up inside the insert. 

 

When you look into the carb needle hole what you see is the brass insert and the small part of the seat. You do not see the full seat which is under the brass insert holding it down.  Removing the seat requires a carb tool with a crochet end.  Using a small probe like can be used for a Tecumseh seat won’t work without damaging the seat.  If you could get it out you can’t insert a new seat as it’s too large without first removing the brass insert. 

 

Removing the brass insert can be a problem.  There’s no lip at the bottom to get a grip on with the carb tool.  Some ways to get the insert out are screw in a screw and pull or tap it put in a machine screw and pull it out or just drill it out.

 

All in all it would be much easier to clear the block behind the seat.  You mentioned the seat may be damaged and if so you have to deal with the brass insert.  If it’s not damaged then you don’t need anything other than to probe and clean the area behind the seat to the carb inlet.

  Just read your update after I posted the above.

  The seats of some carbs can be blown out but I don't think this type of double doghnut with the brass insert could work. 

   I have a few dental tools which are like the Briggs carb tool.  The difference is they have a much sharper point than the blunted carb tool and sometimes rip seats where the carb tool does not.  The Mikuni double doghnut seat is really in there and very difficult to get out without dammaging it - even damaging it without a carb tool because of it being held inplace by the brass insert.

   Not a big deal if your seat is not dammaged as all you need is to clean. 

  

Two kits sold for part 81-5820 which superceeds 81-4700.  So two different needle styles and on kit with no insert but both 81-5820's.

Frank, as a note the jet (main jet) at the bottom of the center carb tube is what I have always seen in the Mukini carbs I've worked on.  It turns out the main jet was moved to the bottom of the emulsion tube in the center of the main tube on your carb.  The hole on your carb is just a hole and smaller than most Mikuni's which fit the main jet. 

The needles on Mikuni's I've replaced have all been rubber tipped needles.  I've never had to pull a rubber seat as they were always good in the carbs I've cleaned.  They are more rugged rubber than in Tecumseh carbs. 

Because of this thread I checked out the carb I posted a picture of above.  It has (had) the rubber seat and brass insert.  With difficulty I did manage to get the seat out with the Briggs carb tool.  I could not get the brass insert out after a few attempts so left it.  I could not get the rubber seat back in after great effort.   I think the only way to get it back in is by removing the insert.  There too much meat to press it back in.  I could not even get it in the hole.  If it could be forced in the chances of it seating the lower lip of the seat is probably impossible.  So, the only way to deal with this carb that I can see is to remove the insert for a seat swap.

I'll take another good look at it later today and see if I can determine exactly what the problem might be. It does not sound or look like it's an easy job to remove the brass insert. Perhaps a chunk of garbage from the old stale fuel is lodged inside there and causing a restriction. It's just so hard to look inside there from either the needle side or the fuel inlet tube.