Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I was about to make a phone call to the dealership in Wisconsin this morning to order a 221Q.  Before doing so, I decided to take a run to Home Depot to see what they had in stock.  I had thoroughly gone through their web site and it was less than helpful.  Terrible in fact.  Probably the worst big box store internet site I've tried.  Nonetheless, I took the trip into town to see what they had.  I was thoroughly surprised and pleased to see two new 221QE machines sitting on the floor.  Price was marked down 25% from $899.00 to $599.00.  Don't know who's doing their math but that works out to 33.3% in my books.  Regardless, I scooped one up right then and there.  I've got it down in the basement for a good once over before I put it to work.   We're supposed to get five or six inches of snow tonight and tomorrow so, I'll be submitting my review. 

I think you'll like it. I once had a 5HP Toro CCR <something thousand> with a Suzuki (something Japanese, can't remember for sure now) 2 stroke that wouldn't ever admit anything was too much for it ... until my then-teenage daughter filled it with regular gas. Oops.

So, I gave the machine a good going over.  Checked everything out to make sure fasteners were good and tight.  Then I put a tach wire on the spark plug lead and a ground wire on the engine, fed both wires outside of the shroud so that I could easily attach the Mini tach.  Took it outside, fire it up and ran it for a while.  No load running speed is 3800 rpm.   Low but typical for this application.  If it's supposed to be making 6 to 6.5 h.p. at those rpms, bumping it up a few hundred will probably get it into the 7 to 8 h.p. range easily.  If the machine is as good as everyone says it is, I'll probably not have to adjust it unless the speed fluctuates on it's own or won't hold sufficient rpms under load.

I know that Tecumseh engine in the Craftsman seems to be making twice it's normal power when I spin it up to 5500 - 6000 rpms.   Now that I have the Toro, I can relegate the Craftsman to cleaning off the deck.    Just got to sit back and wait for the snow now.

I'm going to find a small fuel valve for this thing.  I like to have the option to shut the fuel off when the machine is not in use.   By the way, this machine is much easier to take apart than the Craftsman.   Maintenance on this thing will be a breeze by comparison.   

borat wrote:
If you think the HD site is bad, you should check out lowes.ca! Worse than useless!

I was fixing a CCR1000 up for someone and went to the Toro web site with the model number and it said the engine RPM specs for it.  Was 4200 - 4800 I think.
His was running on the low side of the scale so I tightened the spring up a bit.

Maybe it lists yours too.

Shryp wrote:
Thanks for that.  I'll see if I can find something on it. 

Do you have the link?  Toro has tons of info to wade through to find what we want.  

Got  up to about five inches of snow this morning.  Having a coffee right now waiting for it to stop snowing.   Supposed to clear in an hour or two.

edit:  Don't bother replying Shryp.  I found it.  It says 4000 +/- 100.  Looks like I need to adjust it. 

Borat,

  Many of the manual pages for specific SS models have engine spec manuals.  Below is a list from one.

4HP runs at 3700 + 300

CCR 2400 - 3700

5HP runs at 3800 + 300 rpm

CCR 2450 & 2500 - 3800 rpm

CCR 3600 - 3900 rpm

CCR 3650 - 4000 rpm

Snow Commander - 4000 rpm

All snow engines are + 300 rpm

  I've got a Toro 2450 which from what I read has the same engine block, piston and carb components as yours.  Mines rated at 5hp.  The basic difference between the two seems to be the paddle shape.  From the drawings yours has a flatter section in the chute area.  Mine does not seem to walk itself along as well as Powerlites and CCR2000's I've had.  It needs a bit more help moving forward.  The thing tosses very well though and similar to the 2000's.  The little Powerlite 3hp would toss about as far.  It will be interesting to hear what results you get if you tweak the governor.

What happened on the CR3000?   I think that was a 5hp Suzuki and a nice machine.  The CCR2000s had a chute crank which was nice.

If anyone else wants the link:
https://homeownersolutions.toro.com/portal/server.pt/community/product_center/225

Or you can go to toro.com and then on the bottom left it says "Parts & Manuals" and click on "Homeowner Parts".

Put in your model number then go to the specifications link and it lists all kinds of stuff.

Borat-Congratulations on the new machine. Looks like you have a 2-stroke habit.

If there is a little "window like" open space next to the right side wheel as you view the machine from the operators position  a standard plastic fuel shut-off fits perfectly. I put mine there on the 2450.

Marc

If anyone needs Toro belts, skids and stuff like that, there is a site in Canada with tons of aftermarket parts.

www.c-equipment.com

Borat, congrats on your new Toro single stage.  I'm interested to learn how it's performance compares to the lower hp Craftsman.

PartsMan wrote:

A plug a day keeps the sales a coming.

yeah, I've got a serious two stroke habit.   I mean, really, what's not to like about them? 

My first setting of the governor was a bit too high.   No load speed was around 4200 but after working the machine for fifteen minutes or so, the engine speed went up to 4400 - 4500 rpm.  Way to fast for comfort.  It was pulling me down my 10% grade driveway at a dangerous clip.  I made another adjustment and set it back to 4100.   That's the best setting for control and power.   I'm thoroughly impressed with it.  However, my modified Craftsman doesn't give up much to it when it comes to moving snow.  Plus it's quite a bit lighter and easier to manage than the Toro because it doesn't have the same amount of paddle contact with the ground and doesn't pull anywhere nearly as well as the Toro.  Not really a bad thing actually.  It's a lot more neutral on flat ground.  When it comes to going up the grade on the driveway, the Toro is the machine you want.  I have to coax the Craftsman up the hill whereas, the Toro pulls itself up effortlessly, throwing snow a good distance while doing so.

The snow conditions were hardly a test for either machine.  Light fluffy stuff at first,  but once it had been moved around a bit, it had more substance to it and would toss much better.  

Overall, the Toro is an excellently designed machine.  Quick Shoot and deflector adjuster are real slick.  I'm surprised with the power of the engine.  Very strong for 141ccs running at only 4100 rpm.  The Tecumseh doesn't have anywhere near the same power at those rpms.  That may not be a fair comparison though, considering the Tecumseh is almost 14 years old.   Spin the old Tec up and the power is there in spades and it's amazingly smooth at higher rpms especially under load.   To be honest, the Craftsman is actually more fun to use because of it's weight and variable throttle.  Working the throttle gives more of a sense of participation rather than just ho-hum, follow and drag.   However, when it comes to getting the job done fast and efficiently, the Toro will be first out of the barn.

I tried to insert the following as hyper-links but the software will not allow me to.  You'll have to copy and paste to see them.   The first one is of the 1997 Craftsman 5/21, second is the 2011 Toro 221QE.  Both from this morning.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5SUqWz0j8w  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCDyLJeXX4k


Trouts:  You asked what happened to the CCR 2000?   The woman selling was holding fast to her ridiculous price of $475.00.  There's no way that I'd spring for that kind of money when HD was selling brand a new 221QE for $599.00.

By the way, I called the the local Toro/Ariens gouger to see what their price was for the same machine and was astounded when they said I could "have" one for $999.00 before taxes.  After taxes, that would have been $1128.87!!!  Can you believe that?   There has to be a lot of stupid people in this town to keep that guy in business. 

borat wrote:

God must love stupid people...why else would he have made so many of them.

Great review.  Your Toro was throwing the snow impressively off to the right.  My former single stage Ariens couldn't touch that performance.  BTW, I just missed getting a Honda HS35 that was for sale locally for $150.  Called two minutes too late. 

Paul7 wrote:
Thanks for posting the pic of the fuel valve Marc.   Out of the way, nice and tidy.  It's good to see these machines coming with in-line fuel filters.   That will save a lot of people headaches for people.  Even the old Craftsman has a fuel filter on it.   

Paul7:

I saw a local add for a Honda HS35 selling for $250.00.  I thought about it.  Did some research and discovered it had an L-head engine which didn't appeal to me despite the fact that it's probably a great motor.  From what I read, the HS35 is a nice little piece of technology but wasn't a stellar performer.  Apparently not in the same league as the two cycle Toros and I do have a penchant for two stroke engines. 

Yeah, now that I have the Toro dialed in at 4100 rpm, it's much more manageable and doesn't give  away any noticeable power.  It's certainly a serious single stage machine and will likely be seeing much more work than my two stage Simplicity.  It's just that much easier to use and will handle 90% of the snow we get.      

Great  videos. I like your Craftsman. I have a Sears model from 2006 that was made by Murray. If it worked half as well as your Craftsman I would still be using it. I have a 221QE also. After watching your video it sounds like your machine is revving much higher than mine.  As I have some mechanical ability but almost no experience with OPE engines I was wondering if you could explain or ideally make a video of the process of changing the governor setting on these machines. It would be much appreciated, Thanks and good luck with the Toro.

A how-adjust video would be good but to duplicate Borat, you will need to have a tachometer so you can dial the rpm.

Amazon has one with a replaceable battery for under $20. Here's the link:

http://www.amazon.com/meter-tacho-hourmeter-stroke-HOURMETER-RL-HM011/dp/B0049IFX56

Will this do? Thanks!

ralphfr:

On the lower left side of the bottom shroud there's a cover that the choke handle pokes through.   Remove the screw and take the cover off.  You will see a spring that is horizontally mounted from a connection on the carburetor to a vertical tab.  Bending the tab ever so slightly to the left will increase engine speed.  It doesn't take much of an adjustment.  1/16th of an inch or less will give you a substantial gain in rpm.  Recommended rpms for this machine is 4000 +/- 100 rpm.  I have mine at 4100 rpm and it seems perfect for me.  Remember that increasing engine speed will increase travel speed as well as throwing distance.   I can live with all the throwing distance but can't keep up with the forward movement (particularly down hill)  with anything over 4200 rpm so, you'd be better off to keep the revs at a speed that will allow you to manage the machine.  You  should get yourself a mini tach to confirm your engine speed.  

BTW I found a post by SUPERBUCK(#23) that makes it sound pretty straightforward. Here's the link:

http://www.abbysguide.com/ope/discussions/46182-0-1.html 

Just saw you post BORAT. Great explanation. I will order a tach and check the current rpm. Thanks a lot!


Also in case anyone needs a picture I believe pic#18 on this page is what we're talking about. Thanks again.

http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/briggs_lawn-boy_plastic_carb.asp

borat wrote:
I have the 421QE and it does pull me down the hill too fast for comfort at times when there's ice on the pavement.  I have thought about increasing the RPM but would like a throttle control, for those times I don't need the extra power.  Most of the time, I don't really need more power, as 20-25 feet throwing distance is all to get the snow off the driveway.

borat wrote:
Does Toro allow dealers to sell over MSRP?  Sounds like the dealer doesn't have any competition and the only dealer in town so does whatever he wants.

That dealer in your area is definitely not the norm.  In my area, all Toro dealers, including Home Depot, all have fairly same price within $30 of each other.   None so far has anything over Toro's MSRP.

Here are 2 videos on a CCR Powerlite rebuild.  The second one shows how to adjust that spring at around 6:20.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHqWOz98oZ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3laPrRM6q5Q

aa335 wrote:
Home Depot showed the machine marked down from $899.00 to $599.00.  The gouger's price was $100.00 over HD's MSRP.  That would lead me to believe that the gouger is obviously marking up his prices over MSRP.   Who knows?  Maybe he uses the extra money he adds to MSRP  to use as his "discount" to sell the machine for full MSRP.   Regardless, anyone with the least bit of shopping sense should do a bit of internet searching and local price comparison before making a purchase.  

The dealership didn't have competition until HD showed up a few years ago selling Toro, Ariens and Echo products.  I have a buddy who's brother in law is a friend of the owner of the dealership.  We were at a gathering a few weeks ago and the b-i-l, said something to the effect that if we don't get a lot of snow soon, the "dealership" would be feeling the pinch.  Snow moving equipment isn't moving off the floor.  I casually said that I've been seeing lots of pick-ups coming out of HD with snow blowers in the box.  His response was brilliant.  He said "Well that's because they sell them a lot cheaper and it's junk compared to what Joe sells."   I just let it slide.   

I've only dealt with that dealership once when I was in desperate need of a belt and air filter for my Husqvarna riding mower.   His prices for parts were at least three times the cost of equivalent parts at larger retail stores (if they had them in stock).   When the larger, less expensive retail outlets don't have what you need, and you can't/won't wait for parts to be shipped to you, the gouger gets to make a killing.  

In one of my previous posts, I mentioned a local woman trying to sell a six year old CCR 2000 for $475.00.   When I made her an offer of $300.00, she refused because she said that the machine had been purchased at the above local gouger for $1200.00 and she couldn't part with the machine for less than what she was asking.  I told her that brand new, better appointed Toros can be had at HD for $599.00 which is only $124.00 more than what she's asking.   She maintained that they paid big bucks and couldn't let the machine go for less than what she's asking.  I then politely told her that she had been severely gouged by the dealership  (she agreed)  and that she cannot expect to get the price she wants when new, better machines are so closely priced to what she's asking.   She said that if she can't get her price, she'll keep it.    I assume she kept it. 

What keeps the gouger alive is his connections with the local landscaping outfits.  He get's a lot of their business and they have no problem paying top dollar because they pass their costs on to the consumer and/or write much of their capital costs off as business expenses.   The gouger also has a good small engine mechanic and draws a lot of service work at $80.00/hr.  What many customers don't know is that 75% of the work done in their shop is carried out by less capable techs. 

It's nice to support local business but at what cost?  With outrageous prices and arrogant, insulting attitude, it's hard to muster up any sympathy for them.   Bottom line is that he'll never see another penny of my money.     

borat wrote:

Here's a pic from yesterday of a stack of a nearby HD's CA$599 "junk".  Some were apparently able to "price match" and use a Rona Saturday (29th) morning opening till noon e-mailed offer of "15% off anything" in Rona stores at HD.  That brought the 221QE from CA$599 to CA$509.15.  "Junk", probably not, "a lot cheaper" than gouger, yes.

aa335 wrote:
That's why I like the mechanical governor on the Tecumseh.  With a simple piece of string, it can be used like a throttle. 

If you find a suitably sized/tensioned spring with a straight extension that could be fed through the hole in the tab, it too could be used like a throttle.  When the spring is at rest in the normal operating position, the engine would be running at desired limited rpms.   Tie a piece of string onto the end of the spring with the straight extension that feeds through the hole will allow for the shaft of the spring to be drawn through the hole on the tab thus increasing rpms.  Relaxing tension on the spring will allow it to go back to normal operating position.   The concept is simple enough.  The trick would be to find the correct spring to do the job. 

Another option would be to make some kind of linkage that would utilize the existing spring and running a small shaft through the hole in the tab and bending the tab far enough to the left to allow the shaft to have movement.  The shaft would also need a stop on it on the left side of the tab to hold normal operating position.  Might take a bit of trail and error but very much possible.  

"That brought the 221QE from CA$599 to CA$509.15. "

I'm having a Homer Simpson moment here.....DOUGH!!!!

Unfortunately, we don't have a Rona here so, I have to live with $599.00. 

Borat,

Is there a reason to wait until first oil change or 20 hrs (or some set usage hour) of usage before increasing the RPM?  Just curious and I am not trying to pass down any pre-conceived idea.

Borat,

Don't worry, you still got a good deal.  Just enjoy that outstanding view while you clear snow, your video is a post card of snow throwing locales!

Love the 2-stroke sound, especially that distinctive bouncy engine sound when you back up with no load.  Not sure my tighter-quarter neighbours would agree.  That's why I'll probably hang on to my Poulan 4-banger, unless I see some crazy clearance on the 221QE, especially the HD with 27 in stock today from yesterday's pic.  I caught the 2-stroke bug years ago with three Yamaha bikes in a row, RD400, RZ350, DT200R, once in your blood.....

MN_Runner wrote:
I don't see too many OPE engines that restrict rpm during the break in period.   Loading and unloading the engine is more important with OPE.

When I say load the engine, I'm talking enough to make the engine work pretty hard for a few seconds then back it off.  Repeat off and on for the first hour or so of operation and the engine will be ready for sustained loads in an OPE engine. 


I know with motorcycles, some engine manufacturers like to keep portions of the break in period under certain rpm levels to ensure proper seating of rings, wearing in of bearings etc.  A new engine can be "tight" and shouldn't be stressed too highly before having a chance to run the internal parts in a bit.   Not unreasonable in my view.  However, babying the engine is not a good thing either.   I like to load and unload the engine during break in.  In a four stroke motorcycle engine for instance, back pressure is supposed to help seat the rings better.  Therefore, I'll run the bike up to speed then do some serious gearing down to cause engine braking which generates a lot of back pressure in the cylinder. 

Personally, I think a lot of manufacturers like to keep the engine rpms at reasonable levels to minimize warranty claims.   Chances are that if something is going to let go, it will probably be sooner than later.  Pushing a new engine too hard too long will more than likely facilitate something going wrong.  Whereas, a reasonable break in method will likely allow the engine to settle in a live a longer life. 

 

borat wrote:

A few local OPE dealers threw in the towel rather than try to compete with the big box chains.  However a few enlightened dealers in my area have flourished.  They found the sweet spot, as far as price that a consumer will pay over the box store price, for all of the extra value that a dealer can offer.  Things like expert product knowledge, free delivery, taking trade-ins, etc...are things that the box stores can't touch.  I would much rather buy from an independent dealer for all of those reasons, even if I had to pay a reasonable premium.  Of course there a difference between pay a premium to a service orientated dealer and being taken to the cleaners by a shameless gouger.

" Just enjoy that outstanding view while you clear snow, your video is a post card of snow throwing locales!"

I thank my lucky star every day to be fortunate to live where I live and have the health to enjoy it. 

We were at a dinner party last night and everyone sitting around was moaning and groaning about winter, having to deal with cold temps and snow etc. and talk about trips to warm destinations.     I was the odd man out.  I told them that I love winter and I love snow.  Bring it on. 

This year I bought a cheap old Skidoo Elan to push trails into the bush behind out house so that we could walk them during the winter.  Much nicer than walking out on the streets or roads.   Sadly, my Elan broke down with an electrical problem and I'm waiting for a warm day to pull the engine to fix it.  In the mean time, I've been keeping the trail packed by foot along with help from numerous deer, wolves, coyotes, fox and lynx. 

 The wife and I just come back from a 2.5 mile walk on this loop trail: 

Don't wig out about the picture Trouts, for some reason, I cannot re-size it.

 

   The pict is 640 x 597 which fits and is that size that determines if a thread blows out.   The other "size" is density which is 500,000kb.  It's got way more detail than needed for a net picture to be crisply displayed.  I have fast net but others don't so resizing for density is a good thing also.  That picture at 50kb would look as good and load quickly for everyone.

Good deal!

borat wrote:

My area up here looks a lot like that, less evergeens tho. Also no way you could walk 2.5 miles here like you can up in your area. Great pic!

Borat,

what a great place to go running or skiing.  your sky seems bluer than our MN sky.  it would be a great place to train for a marathon.

I'm waiting for a warmer day to pull the engine out of my Skidoo so that I can trace the electrical problem and repair/replace the coil/point/condenser and spark plug lead.  Been pretty chilly around here the last few days.   If I don't get the snow machine back in service, the trails will be difficult to walk. 

borat wrote:
Very nice.  You are definitely blessed to have such beautiful scenery within walking distance.  From your videos, you seem to be in top shape operating the Toro have and the health to enjoy it.

Like you, while most people I know complain about snow and cold, including my wife.  I love winter.  A few days ago, a neighbor stopped by to ask why I was shoveling snow when I have enough equipment to take care of a small park?  I said, because I enjoy shoveling.

aa335 wrote:
Now that's just wrong on so many levels...

Paul7 wrote:
Yes, I know.  Once the kids are big enough, I can show them my shovel, snow pusher, and ice chipper collection.    Hand manicured snowbanks is a lost art and I hope to revive it. 

Heck, they're not getting $5 foo foo drink at Starbucks sitting on their arses.

That picture was taken maybe 200 feet from my back yard.   The forest on the right in the picture is adjacent to the back of our lot.  I cut a tidy little trail from our lot to allow access for the snow machine out onto the opening in the picture.  Nobody uses that part of the trail and the main trails that I've put access trails into seldom see people.  I've seen only three people walking their dogs out on the trails in the past three months.  A lot of people are unnecessarily afraid of the wolves.   I went out for a couple mile hike today and found a deer kill a few hundred feet off of the main trail.  Looks like the wolves took it down at least a week ago.  Not much left of it.  Personally, I'd love to see a wolf or lynx out on the trails but they're way too wary of that.   I have had a couple lynx in yard.  That was an awesome experience.
These pictures were taken from our deck a few years ago. 

  

borat wrote:
First, that is very beautiful country.  Looks so crisp and clean. Much different than where I live.  Here in SE PA farmland country any elevation over 15 feet is considered a mountain. 

I've never seen a wolf or lynx in the wild and I'd prefer to keep it that way.  Many many years ago when I lived in the Appalachians I used to run trail bikes up and down the power lines.  One day I came up on a pack of feral dogs who were not pleased by my presence.  I carried a S&W .22 kit gun but I didn't even bother grabbing it because it would of probably ticked them off even more.  Extricated myself little by little and then when I had enough distance I just made a run for it.  People I know who are much more outdoorsy than myself swear that there is nothing in the woods, that walks on four legs, to be afraid of.  That may be true but those dogs scared the crap out of me.