Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Your telling me my new baby (421QE) is not perfect?!  :(

alty wrote:

That's the same model I have.......I love mine too! :)

Great, the wonderful virtues of alky in the gas. Way to go greenies!! That is why I bought the 2 stroker.

I wonder if adding Sta-bil to the gas would help at all?

kellyinkc wrote:
Wait until the percentage goes from 10% to 15%.

alty wrote:

Yeah I saw that. Wonderful...
Stabil has a new product: from their site.

kellyinkc wrote:

Looks like Toro customers (like me) will be heading to the store for the new Sta-Bil.

...just what the doctor ordered.

@allenm

Where is your source of the recall? Companies typically don't give customer inside info on when an recall will occur, even though they have plans.  They let everyone know of a recall at the same time through  an official bulletin.

Not busting your $#%* or anything like that.  If the impending recall is not Toro's stance, existing owners of the 421Q maybe led to expect one and will be disappointed or outraged when Toro doesn't do a recall.

Too bad they don't make a diesel powered snowblower. Sure it'd be tough to start in the cold but at least they don't cut your fuel. 15% ethanol means roughly 15% less mileage.

Sorry to hear that the 421/Q Toro's have a problem but at least they'll fix it. Small consolation tho.

There are some diesel powered Ariens on youtube :)

"Where is your source of the recall?"

Stabil manufacturer maybe????

borat wrote:

He must of read it while standing in line at the supermarket.

>>>These deteriorating parts break off inside the carburetor creating small fragments then clog areas inside the machine (ie. fuel line).  Gas will leak out of the snow blower into (ie. your garage).  Yep, fragments swim up stream to the fuel line energized by ethanol.  Swim up into the needle seat. 

"Gas will leak out of the snow blower into (ie. your garage)."  And probably explode when the cord is pulled burning the operator, the garage, house, his family, and neighborhood, the town, spread to the county, the state and toppel the government.  Were those Chinese carbs?  I sniff an issue here. This has nothing to do with ethanol it's a 5th column inside job with you know Hu.

aa335 wrote:

borat wrote:

lol :)  I went back and read my post, and it does sound like I might work for Stabil.

trouts2 wrote:
Give it about 5 years.  Those Chinese carbs will be the most reliable in the industry.  Japan - Korea - China.   See a pattern?

Do you know Hu's funding North American lifestyles?  Let's hope we play nice so don't start asking for their money back.  Then we'll be asking Hao we're coming up with the money.

Steve_Cebu wrote:
Just to correct this misconception.  Ethanol contains about two thirds the energy of gasoline.  So gasoline with 10% ethanol has about 97% the energy of straight gasoline and gasoline with 15% ethanol has about 95% the energy of straight gasoline.  You can therefore expect about a 3% drop in fuel mileage with gasoline with 10% ethanol and about a 5% drop in fuel mileage with 15% ethanol.

So is there a recall or not?  Is this just a hoax?

fleetfoot wrote:

I average 5mpg less with 10% ethanol and that's a fact. I keep meticulous records of my mileage for all my cars.

Steve_Cebu wrote:

I am not disputing your records. Assuming that you average 30 mpg, only 1 mpg of your loss can be attributed to the 10% ethanol unless you average 166 mpg. Something other than ethanol is contributing to the other 4 mpg loss you are seeing.

fleetfoot wrote:

Well from where I sit it's the ethanol. I pay for 100% gas and that's what I want in my car.

fleetfoot wrote:

Maybe your numbers are true for a pure fresh ethanol blend, but most of this ethanol is getting old by the time it gets into most end-user gas tanks and has probably absorbed plenty of water by then - wonder what kind of energy/mpg we're talking about with water-saturated ethanol?  Anyway, energy potential is small potatoes compared to all the other big problems attributable to ethanol, like environmental degradation and significant loss of wildlife habitat (especially for upland-nesting gamebirds and ducks).

longboat wrote:
Where are the facts to support either of your statements?

I never said that ethanol was good or bad.  I just questioned Steve's statement about 15% ethanol gasoline resulting in a 15% reduction in fuel economy.

MN Runner  -  "  So is there a recall or not?  Is this just a hoax? "

....wondering the same thing

fleetfoot wrote:

Where are the facts to dispute my statements?  There's more than plenty of anecdotal evidence that 10% ethanol gasoline is absorbing water before it gets into the end-user's gas tank - never heard of water in the gasoline helping to get better mileage, and I'm sure many physicists would agree.  Maybe water injected AFTER the fact if you have a high-compression engine with variable timing that is designed to take advantage of water injection to reduce engine knock at high-compression ratios, but I don't know of any commercial engines that are specifically designed to do that, and the principle doesn't even work the same for water that is already IN the gasoline.  There's only one good way to burn water when it comes to IC engines.

It may not be as big of an issue in populated areas where filling stations go through fuel pretty fast with high turnover, but problems are pretty rampant at remote filling stations where the fuel may sit a few weeks or even months. 

As for facts to support wildlife habitat degradation?  If you don't believe me, ask any Wildlife Sciences professor at any university in the midwest or Great Plains, or any Wildlife Manager in those areas.  Or if you're like me and you have lived in this country all your life, you can see how much ground has been broken in the last ten years so farmers can take advantage of high grain prices - land that is highly-erodible, and land that has been in CRP since that program started in the 80's.  We're talking wetlands and uplands and steep hillsides - it's ridiculous.  Let the Wildlife Manager (or Ducks Unlimited) tell you about how loss of CRP results in fragmented habitat that has a compounding effect on contributing to game bird loss and lack of recruitment.   I could go on and on, but we've gotten pretty far off-topic already...

Well, it's happening to my two month old 421QE. Smelled gasoline in the garage this morning. Walked over to the Toro and found a small puddle of gas right below the carb bowl, gasoline was on the two crews on the bottom. Siphoned the tank will drain the carb bowl. Couldn't come at a better time since there's a big storm coming. At least I got another backup snowblower.

aa335 wrote:
These new Toro's are a piece of cake to work on.  Just lift the top off of it and trace the fuel leak.   When you find it, fix it.  I wouldn't be concerned about warranty either.  It's not like you're tearing the engine down and there's a very good chance you'll do a better job than the dealership. 

Yes, the 421Q is relatively simple machine.  The engine is larger than the two stroke on 221Q, but everything else is the same.  It is surprising to see how small that 2 stroke engine is.  Even though the snowblower is big, most of it is empty space.

I took the carb bowl off and removed the float and the needle valve.  Looks like some the needle plating has comes off and possibly preventing the needle from seating properly to shut off the fuel.  Cleaned as much as I can to get all the specks out, put everything back and refill the gasoline.  Start it back up.  Everything seems to be running fine, no leaks afterwards.  I only have a small amount of fuel in the tank but will keeping an eye to see if the leak occurs again.  We're expecting some good amount of snow the next two days so I want it to be at least operational. 

While I was poking around in there, I found the governor mechanism.  I can rig up a throttle control slider or similar to a soft spring and pull that governor arm to increase the RPM.  I will be a parallel spring to the existing one.  Basically increasing the spring rate.  Relatively simple,  the only thing is to find place to mount the cable/spring.  Probably will take on this mod at the end of winter season.

AA335:

Have you used ethanol fuel in your machine?

I haven't and I am hoping not using it might help avoid the problem until Toro issues a recall.

FWIW, I have a shut-off valve and two clamps that will be installed today. At least if the needle valve sticks, I won't flood my garage with gas or fill the engine crankcase with gas.

CharlesW wrote:
I think the fuel has 10% ethanol.  I use Phillips 66 and Shell exclusively.  In this area, I can't get ethanol free gasoline.  I'll have to drive 80 miles south to the sticks to get ethanol free gasoline.

Fuel shut off valve is one of list of mods to do.  However, I'm holding off on that until Toro takes care of this fuel leak issue.  I don't want to give dealers any reasons to deny my warranty. 

I leave the tank almost empty or dry after running it.  That should minimize spillage.  The less fuel you have in the tank, the less pressure the fuel have to push out.

How can you fill the crankcase with gas?

"How can you fill the crankcase with gas?"

If the carb is higher than the crank case and in most cases, it is, the constant flow of fuel may flow from the float bowl up into the venturi of the carb, into the cylinder, leak past the rings and into the crank case. It's not an uncommon experience.  Hasn't happened to me but I've read numerous accounts of it.  Shut off valves are good. 

borat wrote:
Thanks for the info.  I'll definitely add a shtut off valve sometime.  There's a little space at the bottom cover where the fuel tubing is visible, about 2 inches to the right of the carb and downstream of the fuel filter.

Both of the Honda have fuel shutoff, in addition to a thumb screw to drain the carb bowl.  I kind of miss not having these conveniences on the Toro.  Anybody mod their carb bowl to add the thumbscrew drain screw?

longboat wrote:
Yeah.   When I see what used to be hardwood forests where I hunted squirrels in my youth, many on steep hillsides, that are now turned into barren cornfields it almost makes me wanna cry!   Gotta be a better way.

aa335 wrote:
Installing a fuel shut-off in the visible tubing you are describing was a piece of cake.  A few bucks, 5 minutes or less of time for peace of mind.
Didn't fix anything since I don't have the problem yet. No ethanol used in any of my engines so I'm hoping I can make it to the recall without incident.
If it happens, my problem should be minimized.

As far as voiding any warranty, I discussed it with the mechanic at my Toro dealer before I did it. I also purchased the valve and two clamps from him.

CharlesW wrote:
Would you happen to have the part numbers or sizes I would need for the nipple and clamps?  I might go ahead and do it.

aa335 wrote:
Why would you go to a Toro dealership to get a valve?  You'll pay a million bucks for a $5.00 piece.  Go to any automotive outlet and buy a small plastic valve with 1/4" barbs and a couple tiny hose clamps.   I've seen some kits sold with a short length of line (12" or so) as well.  

aa335 wrote:
No, I don't, but I think it was a pretty common  shut-off for 1/4" I.D. gas line.
Just a guess, but the clamps were probably 1/2" to 5/8". Chances are 1/4" gas line is pretty much a standard O.D.size.
Again, probably pretty common since he didn't need to look anything up.

borat wrote: That's easy.
My local Toro dealer is part of a well stocked hardware store and their prices are quite competitive with the box stores. In fact, I paid less there for my 421 than Home Depot had them priced at.

The fact that I would have to drive about 7 miles round trip to possibly save a buck or two was also a factor.
Add to that, he had the parts and another store might or might not have had them.

aa335: No extra tubing is needed for this installation.

Well CharlesW, you're a luck guy.

The local Toro gouger in this town wants 400.00 more than HD for a 221QE!   A bolt that would cost fifteen cents at a hardware store will cost around $5.80 at the Toro gougership. 

I wish we had a dealership like yours......

Another reason why I try to support him.
Wal-Mart, Menard's, Home Depot are my last resort, only if he doesn't have the item.
He is an independent, but buys through the Ace Hardware Group and that seems to help him a lot in his buying power.
First class operation and when he retires, it will probably be closed.

CharlesW wrote:
Thanks for the info.  I got all the parts I need.   They're going on the fuel line tonight.

aa335 wrote:
Is your tank empty? It's actually more work to drain the tank and refill it than it is to install a shutoff. If you have gas in it, it might be easier to wait till it's empty.

But not in a blizzard!

Bill_H wrote:

The tank has about two oz of fuel. I'll just drain it by making a small slit in the tubing.

If you put the machine on it's bucket to do the work, won't  that little bit of fuel settle into a corner of the tank away from the fuel outlet? 

borat wrote: I had mine tipped up quite a ways, not quite to the balance point, but close and fuel still came out of the line.
I didn't fill the tank after my last use since (1) I didn't want to have a lot in it if I had the leaking problem, (2) I planned on doing the shut-off valve installation.
I just cut the line with side cutters where I wanted to put the valve then put the line into a bottle and let the gas drain into the bottle.
Even with my bad eye/hand coordination, I doubt that I spilled an ounce.
I used a quart bottle and probably drained out less than a pint.
I think the tank only holds a little over a quart so unless you just filled the tank, a quart bottle should be plenty big enough to hold what you drain out..

It's done.  Just installed the shut off valve.

Since I only have two ounces of fuel in the tank, I drained through the carb bowl.  Used a pair of utility shears to cut the tubing at 2 inches from the carb.  Then I cut 1/2" off the fuel tank side, the same distance the fuel valve occupies, so that I don't add any slack into the fuel tubing length.  Slipped two tubing clamps on, then insert the fuel valve barbs into the tubing, making sure the flow direction arrow points towards the carb.  Reposition the clamps over the barbs and I was done.  Took about 10 minutes in total to install the valve.

Called Toro in Canada.  They have solve the leak problem on the 421q model.  As long as your serial number starts with 311.

If you have an earlier model, they recommend to bring it to the dealer.

shark007 wrote:
Thank you!!!!
Some of the best news I have heard this week.
As you may have guessed, my serial number does start with 311.

aa35>>>Anybody mod their carb bowl to add the thumbscrew drain screw?

No, but installed several of the push button, spring type.  They are easy to install and work fine.

Borat and AA335,

You guys made a modification to your snowblower so how does that affect your warranty? I am assuming you guys are not planning to take it in for any kind of service work since you are able mechanics.

MN_Runner wrote:

Well my dealer said as long as I remove the big turbo kit, aftermarket exhaust, downpipe, and ecu before bringing it in, he doesn't care.

No mods on the Toro.  I just  put on a removable tach  and set the governor to the correct rpm 4000 +/- 100 rpm. 

Unless there is a catastrophic failure of sorts, it will not be going in for service. 

shark007 wrote:
Details?  What was the fix?  It's like going to the car mechanic and he hands you a $500 repair bill, I want to know what was done.

Why would Toro of Canada recommend taking to the dealer if the machine doesn't have any leaks?

CharlesW wrote:
Sorry to bust your bubble, but my snowblower serial number also starts with 311.  It was leaking!  I'd hold off the celebration until the summer.

Either Toro of Canada is wrong about the serial number cut off, shark007 conveyed the wrong information, or I'm just unlucky and have a leaking unit that begins with 311.  So unless we get official announcement from Toro, I would take any news from unofficial sources with a grain of salt.

Maybe this would give Toro a head's up to adjust their affected units, add me as another data point in the Failure Analysis database.


Anyone know what the Toro's serial number means as far as production date/month/year?

Not sure how their serial no. work but here's an interesting link for the 421Q:

https://icontent.toro.com/smartmanuals/Toro_PowerClear4210_4Cycle/Proc20368.htm

That is a lot of work just to replace a sparkplug in 441Q.  I wonder if 221Q is similar as well.

MN_Runner wrote:
4 screws for the chute, 5 screws for the top cover.   Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me.  3 minute job.  10mm socket and a phillips head screwdriver.  Spark plug changes are once a year at most.

It's only a snowblower, not a Ferrari.  Sometimes looking a parts diagram or instructions may be more complicated than it actually is.   My 5 year old can take it apart, the Toro, not the Ferrari.    He's blessed with curiosity.  :)  Still working on the finesse part, he likes to rip through it fast.

I use a 1/2 drive cordless drill.  I put a 1/4" extension in the drill, attach suitably sized socket and can have the top off the Toro in probably one minute or less.   The Craftsman SS is far more difficult to take the cover off of.  It's got 11 screws along the back and sides, four more small bolts on the front and four more it you need to take the chute off. 

By comparison, the Toro is a monument to simplicity.  A chimpanzee could take it apart. 

So you can gap the sparkplug, take the screws off, replace the sparkplug, then put the screws and schute back on in three min.  That is really good and fast.

Wait - your son could probably do it in 5 min with a little help from you.  I just confirmed I am really slow.

MN_Runner wrote:
Who said that?

I said take the top off. 

I could do the whole job in under ten minutes.  Gapping the plug correctly would probably take most time.  Changing the plug could probably be done in five minutes if I wanted to hurry.   

MN_Runner wrote:
No, he can do it in 4:35. I just rounded up the time.  :)  All I have to do is bribe him, letting him work the paddle shifter on my car.  :)  He knows what redline is. 

He can finish it before I can run a full mile.

Hi,

I'm new here. I found this board recently. I heard something similar to the original poster about the Toro 421. I called two local dealers here in northeast Ohio yesterday to inquire about the 421Q. I'm debating between a 221 and a 421 myself. They both said they couldn't sell what they had on the floor until they received their repair kits from Toro. They both had the same story. The aluminum parts in the carb were being "eaten" by ethanol and that the plating on the needle valve was too "thin" to handle it which was causing it to flake off and clog the carb, thus causing it to leak. The repair kit consisted of a new needle valve, seat, and fuel line. Both dealers advised me to put a fuel shutoff valve on the snowblower if I bought it, which I would do on my own anyway.

Should I let these problems with the 421Q scare me away from it? I was leaning toward the 221Q but the significant other likes to do the driveway too when I'm away and has been complaining about "having another one that makes us stink from using it" and "having to mix the gas". Not like that's hard to do but she always complains about it.

Breather wrote:
Either the 221Q or the 421Q is a good snowblower.  The 221Q has been around with the same proven engine for years so most people feel comfortable with it.

I wouldn't let the problems of the 421Q prevent you from buying one.  The fuel leak problem isn't as big as it seems.  You can put on a shut off valve easily to mitigate or lessen the leakage so it won't be hazardous.  You can choose to run the engine with the shut off valve closed until it stops so that there's no chance of any fuel leaking past the carb bowl.  The 421Q is a fine machine and I'm very impressed with the engine performance. 

Can your wife deal with potential fuel leak of the 421Q stinking up the garage from the fuel leak?  How comfortable is it for her to deal with a seeing a puddle of fuel on the floor?   What will she do?  Not use the snowblower and shovel by hand?

As far as the stink, you can get synthetic 2 cycle oil that has virtually no odor.  For the having to mix the gas, who's the one mixing?  If she's complaining about the mixing that she never does, that's a moot point.  You can have the gas mixed for her while you're away so only the "stink" issue remains.

There's always pros and cons.  Fortunately, the cons are easy to deal with.

As Pepe Le Pew would say.....

Stink?  What stink? 

Personally, I like the smell of two cycle exhaust.  It reminds me of my youth racing two stroke enduro machines through the bush! 

Nothing like the smell of 2 cycle on your clothes after a long day....  you know you got something done... (smells great)

Friiy

Thanks for the replies guys. I like the two-cycle smell myself. I had a Lawn-Boy two-cycle mower for years as did the neighbor behind me. I spent close to twenty years of my life smelling the aroma every mowing season. Not to mention gas trimmers, edgers, etc. I can only imagine the complaining I would have had to endure had she been in my life then, lol.

I mix the gas quite often but, believe it or not, she does take charge and gets it done herself when we run out and I'm not home. I'll just tell her that if I decide I'm going with a two-cycle, I'll deal with it all the time. Out of curiousity, how much does the synthetic mitigate the smell and smoke on a two-cycle?

I talked to another dealer today who told me that the repair kit was not solving the issue on all of them(421) and for those still affected Toro was then sending replacement carbs, which haven't completely solved the issue either. He said that he talked to Toro tech service two days ago and they supposedly have yet another carb that supposedly solves the problem once and for all. He claimed that next season, there will be no two-cycle snowblowers and only 4-cycles will be available and all of those will have the newest carb and supposedly, trouble-free...

Breather wrote:
It would be interesting to know just what the problem really is.
First it was plating flaking off the needle. (Blamed on ethanol)
Then it was the needle and seat
Next it was a need for a replacement carburetor
Now it is a need for yet a different carburetor

Do you get the idea that they really don't have a clue as to what the problem really is?

Extending the warranty for at least another year would go a long way in restoring my faith in Toro.
If the problem is truly corrected, what do they have to lose?

No more two stroke Toros?

Blasphemy I say.  Blasphemy!!!!!

End of an era.   Pathetic.

CharlesW wrote:
It's probably not as widespread of a problem and they may not have captured all the failures yet, so the fixes will be case by case basis from the service dealers.  Also, there's a lead time for replacement parts, with the proper solution to the root cause.

I'd wait for the dust to settle before bringing it in.  Trigger happy fixes causes confusion and money.  I'm sure they'll get the fix.

I doubt that Toro will extend the warranty.  I remember they used to have 5 year GTS warranty.  Now it's only 2 years.  If there's a problem with the carb, it will be covered under the recall.  No one is getting a free ride on other components because of carb issues. 

aa335 wrote:
I'm not looking for a "free" ride. I paid $800 for that ride and I would just like to get my money's worth.
Some owners are in their second year of this problem and are still waiting for "the fix".
If Toro replaces the carburetor for those owners this summer, the warranty will expire not long after.
What if this "fix" is like the previous ones and the problem still exists?
What recourse do those owners have then?

borat wrote: Don't put all the blame on Toro.
From what I have read, the problem lies with emission standards and not necessarily with any decisions the manufacturers wanted to make.
It is happening or has happened to outboard motors and motorcycles already.
I also understand it is spreading to other OPE products such as trimmers and chainsaws.