Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I'm looking at either buying the Toro 2-cycle 221QE or the 4-cycle 421QE.  One dealer I talked to said that the 4-cycle 163cc engine will be almost impossible to start, even with the electric start, if stored in an unheated garage at -20C.  He said that he has lots of people who bought this machine come back and complain about it not starting when really cold.  He had both the 2-cycle and 4-cycle models in the showroom and recommended that I buy the 2-cycle and that I would be a lot happier with it.  Another dealer said that it just comes down to personal preference on which one you want to buy and that they are both just as easy to start when the temp is really cold out.  Anyone have any comments about cold starting on the 421QE?  This is the one I would like to buy because it would be a little bit quieter and the exhaust wouldn't stink as much as the 2-cycle.

jackrabbit000 wrote:

Toro's start on 1 pull. I think your dealer wants to sell you a 221Q. Personally I don't care for 2 strokes too finicky, and high strung. They sound like a mad hornet all the time. Call up Toro and ask them if their 421 has problems starting in the cold. Thaat should get a belly laugh out of them. These machines are made for the snow. They are even nice enough to provide a toll free number with their hours. The call is free and they are the manufacturer. It's worth the call if you are worried about cold weather starting.

Mowers, Snowthrowers, Tractors & Electric Handheld Products:
Monday - Friday 7:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. (CST)
Saturday and Sunday - Closed

USA 1-888-384-9939
Canada 1-800-544-5364

jackrabbit000,

Is your Toro dealer located in Long Island?

Steve_Cebu wrote:

Yeah, I found it really strange that he would say that the 421 has cold starting problems.  They are SNOWblowers.   Thanks for the number.

MN_Runner wrote:

No, I'm actually in Alberta, Canada.

jackrabbit000 wrote:

Good thing I included the Canadian number then.  Let us know what Toro of Canada says about their 421Q starting in the cold. I have a Toro 1028OXE 2 stage and it starts with one easy pull once choked and primed, no matter how cold it is.

jackrabbit,

Don't you guys get a lot of snow in Alberta, Canada so given that is Toro 421QE or 221QE good big enough?  Sounds like you need a Toro 1028 or 1128.

Steve_Cebu wrote:
@jackrabbit000

Not sure of the dealer's motivation to push the 221Q over the 421Q.  I've talked to many dealers and they gladly sell me either model, doesn't make any difference. 

Maybe there has been so many rave reviews of the 421Q lately that sales of 221Q has slumped and the dealer just want to move them.  :)  Not that any of us here have anything to do with it. 

aa335 wrote:

I was thinking the same thing, great minds think alike I guess.

But honestly a dealer saying a 4 stroke Toro is hard to start? That just doesn't make sense at all. That's like the Honda dealer telling me The Honda Fit is reliable (I have 2 of them) but the Civic isn't.

The dealer must have overstocked the 2 strokes. It'll be interesting to see what Toro says about it.

I'm no expert but isn't it because the engine oil in a 4 stroke engine on sub zero days can get thick enough to make it hard to get the motor up to speed by pull starting?  That's why thinner oil is recommended the colder it gets.  Two strokes have no such issues since there is no crank case oil to thicken-up. 

Steve_Cebu wrote:
I'm a bearer of good news.  If I feel that a product has exceeded my expectation, it's worth giving credit where it's due.

Doesn't make sense to me either.  That dealer is iffy and I would not buy from them.   NO dealer should use FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) within the product lines that they sell.  Just bad practice and I'm sure Toro would not tolerate that.

Paul7 wrote:

Yes that is the viscosity but you can get the viscosity in different weights. I forget what's in my Toro. But you can always go lower in viscocity if you live where it gets really really cold like Frostbite Falls MN or almost anywhere in Canada.

aa335 wrote:

Yeah I'd agree with that which is another reason I didn't buy Ariens from my dealer. far too pushy on that product line. Kinda like teh kid in school who tried too hard to give you a stick of gum. You just KNEW it was loaded with pepper or something.

I hope the OP calls up Toro of Canada and gets the straight scoop on the 421Q. I wonder if Toro still has their starts on one pull guarantee any more?

Jack-I bought a Toro 2450 2 stroke a few years back and have been tremendously impressed with it's reliability and utility. Absolutely not finicky at all and if you use a synthetic 2 stroke oil in your mix no detectable smoke or smell.

I think weight is important in a paddle drive machine (lighter being more desirable) and therefore would go with the 221 as opposed to the 421 as I assume the four cycle variant is a heavier machine. In addition the four stroke Loncin (Chinese) engine is new in the Toro line and doesen't have a track record.

Which ever machine you buy see if Toro is putting a fuel shut off on them. If not see if the 221/421 still has that little window of open space on the lower right hand corner as you face the machine as they did on the 2450-3650 series . If so buy yourself the standard gas shutoff valve and 2 spring fuel clamps and install the valve in the fuel line in the afore mentioned space. I don't know why it isn't mandatory to have a fuel shutoff on all ope.

 Marc   

mml4 wrote:
You have to wonder why they don't just include a fuel shutoff as a standard feature for the few extra $$$'s it would cost????

MN_Runner wrote:

We got a big dump of snow this weekend about 15".  It gets really cold here but we don't usually get much at all.  Supposed to be around -20C for a high all week.

Steve_Cebu wrote:

I have the feeling that they are overstocked on the 221Q/QE's and just wanted to move them.  It just doesn't make sense to me at all especially when Toro has the 2 year GTS.  But, doesn't hurt to post it to see what everybody else says.

Paul7 wrote:

This dealer said that it had something to do with the automatic decompression in the engine is what makes a 4-cycle hard to start when it's stored in a really cold garage.  Of course I'm no small engine expert and didn't even know what he was talking about.

jackrabbit000 wrote:
Hmm...my Honda HS621 has decompression for starting and never had problem with the cold in an unheated garage. 

Seems like either he wants to move the 221Q due to overstock condition or that he count on uninformed users to forget adding oil to gasoline and toasting a 2 stroke engine so that he can make additional $ from out of warranty service.  :)

jackrabbit000 wrote:

Ok I called up Toro and spoke to Gabby, it doesn't matter if it's cold or not she said. But customers might be coming in and telling the dealer they have problems. It was hard to type as she was talking. She says that the authorized dealers act as tech support but she has had no complaints regarding the 421QE which does have Toro's guaranteed to start warranty which is for 2 years. She suggests that you call a different dealer in the area and ask them if they have problems with the 421QE starting. Now keep in mind I called US customer service. I hope this info helps you.

So you have a guaranteed 2 years to start warranty (at least in the US) double check for Canada and no reported problems. I'd say you're safe buying the 421QE.

As a side note Toro wants to use the video with my wife in it!  They want it sent to their email and are asking permission. So my wife is really pleased with that. Go Toro!

Steve_Cebu wrote:
Trade them for a 421QE :)

Shryp wrote:

Hey I'll be happy if they use our videos that would be awesome! Of course I would never turn down a free 421Q either.

Steve_Cebu wrote:

What is Toro doing with the video?

aa335 wrote:

They want to see if they can use it for showing people that anyone can use a Toro 2 stage or something like that. Once I have more details I will post them. I guess the fact that my wife being so small and yet able to use it is something that interests them.

Steve_Cebu wrote:

I called Toro Canada this afternoon also and she told me exactly the same thing.  Did not know why the dealer would say that unless they had a surplus of 221's in stock.  As far as she knows there are no starting problems and also mentioned the 2 year GTS.  I also asked about the fuel leaking problem that I have read in many reviews with the 421's.  She said that there have been quite a few complaints of the carbureator leaking gas on the ones starting with serial number 331.  But right now she said that there is no recall on them and Toro is still looking into it.  They are working on a fix for the leak and we should see it in the 2012 models this fall.

Steve, thanks for calling, really nice of you to go out of your way to call and ask.  Hopefully they give you something really good for using your video.  Also, thanks everyone for your replies also this is an awesome forum for getting info.

jackrabbit000 wrote:

Glad to be of help and I was curious myself. Interesting info about the gas leak too. I didn't ask about that.

So are you going to get a 421 this year or wait until next year?

Steve,

You have been promoted to Saint Toro!

Steve_Cebu wrote:

I'm going to check into the carbeurator gas leak a bit more before getting one.  Since Toro has not decided to do a recall on the 421 yet, I would hate to buy one and have the leaking gas problem especially when the machine will be stored inside my garage.  Probably going to get the 421QE myself.  They cost around $1000 here.

MN_Runner wrote:

That would be even funnier if you knew my last name. ROFL!

jackrabbit000 wrote:

Maybe you could check the serial number on the unit you are buying? Other than that I guess you have to take a risk if it'll leak gas or not. I'd just call up a bunch of places and check their serial numbers. You might get one built before the problem.

jackrabbit000 wrote:

Ouch! If you might instead sway towards the two-stroke 221QE, you could save a bundle buy having one shipped from the Toronto area where at Home Depot the 221QE is going for CA$675.00.  HD SKU 490090. Maybe Alberta, Canada HD locations will price match. On my way home this evening, I swung by the Elgin Mills / Leslie (Richmond Hill) location where they have 98 units on hand, still at CA$675.

I am paying close attention to the price as I bought a 221QE on Dec 22/10 and I have it still sealed in the box awaiting a price drop and a price match opportunity (within 30 days or rejuvenation thereof).  (I also have an Ariens in use to get me through anything white that comes our way, but so far a light snow winter around here.) With 10% off the $675 for first use of HD card I got it for CA$607.50 but I am still looking for a better deal since last season's HD price history was pretty sweet; Jan 22/10 down to CA$499, Feb 24/10 down to CA$399. That was around Toronto. A Montreal location cleared out their last few 221QE units at CA$299 on Feb 24/10.

CA$1000 seems pretty steep, especially if you're kind of on the fence on 2- vs. 4-stroke.  Good luck!

Since the beginning of this winter my 421QE has started on the first or second pull every time.  It's been down to the single digits - but not

below zero yet.   When I purchased it from the local Toro Dealer - they had over twice as many 221's as 421's in stock.

I live in Saskatchewan (which is as cold-if not colder- than Alberta).  My 221 QE starts easily, however the carb *always* freezes up and causes it to run in a lean (over reving) condition.  The only way to solve this problem has been to point a blow dryer at the carb for about two minutes before operation- often it will freeze up during operation.

 Toro customer service has been zero help...they simply said, "sorry, that can happen in cold weather."  I would not buy this unit again.

Good luck.

saskwinter wrote:

Do you think the 421Q would be any better or the same as the 221Q when it comes to freezing up?

It can't imagine it being any worse.  As I said, it starts easily even at -30, but it runs like junk.  I'm going to try some Iso-heet in the fuel, maybe that will help?  However, this unit freezes up whether it's -35 or -5.  Sad.

NotMoneyGuy wrote:

I called a couple of dealers and they gave me a price of $999 for the 421QE and $899 for the 221QE.  For the extra $100 I was leaning towards the 4 stroke engine.  Since the big dump of snow last weekend, HD is sold out of everything.

saskwinter wrote:

-27C here tonight with a wind chill of -34C tonight and this is supposed to last all week.  That's why I put up this post on starting a 221QE or 421QE.  At these temps, it's always good to do some research before actually buying one.

I wonder if the 421Q/QE has the same problem as in this recall of the Power Clear 180 dated 7/14/10.

Snow Blowers Recalled by The Toro Company Due to Fire Hazard

WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission and Health Canada, in cooperation with the firm named below, today announced a voluntary recall of the following product. Consumers should stop using products immediately unless otherwise instructed. It is illegal to resell or attempt to resell a recalled consumer product.

Name of product: Power Clear 180 Single Stage Snow Blowers

Units: About 35,700 in the United States and 2,300 in Canada

Manufacturer: The Toro Company, of Bloomington, Minn. Hazard: Exposure to ethanol in gasoline can cause the carburetor needle to become corroded. A corroded needle can stick in the open position and allow fuel to leak from the carburetor, posing a fire hazard to consumers.

Incidents/Injuries: Toro has received 2,200 reports of carburetor leaks. No fires or injuries have been reported.

Description: This recall involves Toro® Power Clear 180 Single Stage snow blowers. The recalled snow blowers have model numbers 38272 and 38282. Serial numbers included in the recall range from 310000001 through 310999999. The model and serial number can be found on a decal on the lower right side of the snow blower.

Sold at: Toro dealers and The Home Depot stores nationwide from November 2009 through May 2010 for between $400 and $440.

Manufactured in: U.S.A.

Remedy: Consumers should immediately check to see if their snow blowers are included in this recall and contact an authorized Toro service dealer to arrange a free repair. To obtain the location of the nearest dealer, consumers should contact Toro.

Consumer Contact: For additional information, contact Toro toll-free at (877) 738-4440 between 7:30 a.m. and 6 p.m. CT Monday through Friday, or visit the firm’s website at www.toro.com.

jackrabbit000 wrote:

No it just involves the Power Clear 180. If there was a recall for the 221Q/421Q it would be a seperate recall notice and it would list the affected units by serial number just like this one does.

saskwinter wrote:

Typical response for Toro customer service. If the issue isn't one where they have  exposure in terms of  safety related product liability  they could care less. I own and like two Toro products but avoid buying Toro if I can because of their attitude towards consumers.

               With sincere appologies to Steve Cebu who is the most loyal customer Toro or any other manufacturer of anything ever had !

Marc

I just bought the toro powerclear 180 a few weeks back.  I think it has a mini-version of the 163 cc engine found on the 421q toro.  It seems to start fine in cold weather.  The dealer also said that the the leaking fuel problem on last year's units has been solved.   I have used it a few times and it's not too bad as long as you don't attack large mounds of snow.  I also have a toro 826 two stage.  If I didn't I'd have bought the 221q unit.   I'm hoping Home Depot keeps lowering their price in Toronto.

mml4 wrote:

Thanks, I think

I really like their products but I'd be the first one to call up and $#%* if I had a problem. So far my dealer is a memory. I saw him a few times when testing machines but not since then. Yes I do have them do the service, but other than that no problems except when I was getting all those flat tires from the idiots who put the roof on the house and decided to not pick up the nails afterwards.

All companies do this BS nowadays. I'm looking to get a new laptop, do you think any of them have good customer service and tech support? ROFL! Toro told me their authorized dealers ARE their tech support. The Honda snowblower dealer now they were really difficult.

Update....It was -31 this morning and the machine (after using the blow dryer for 5 minutes) froze up during operation (no power).  Back to the garage for another blow dryer session.  Toro could care less.  My dealer (mom & pop type) are apologetic, but have no answers.

I wold not recommend this machine for anyone living in the prairie provinces- especially if you don't have a heated garage.

The depressing part is- when it works, it fabulous....when it works....

All the Dale Carnegie courses in the world could not get Toro to give a hoot!

Sorry to step on your thread, jackrabbit.

I have purposely avoided buy anything Toro due to the Company's and the dealerships hubris.  From my experience with the local Toro dealership,  I've seen nothing but arrogance and outright disrespect for customers.   When the local Husqvarna dealership closed down, the Toro dealership absorbed their business.  I had the misfortune of being left with no choice but to buy a riding mower belt and an air filter from the Toro dealership.  I needed the items right away and nobody else had anything in stock.  Not only were the prices outrageous, the demeanor of the staff was insulting.  They seemed take some perverse joy in seeing the price shock from customers.  They actually laughed and made jokes about the prices.   When I questioned why the price of the air filter was almost three times that of the price at a box store,   they laughed and said "Wait until you see the price of the belt!"   Now if that isn't arrogance, I don't know what is.   I have not and will not ever buy a Toro or an Ariens or anything else from that dealer.  Ever!  I'll cut the grass with a pair of scissors first. 

saskwinter wrote:
Under those conditions, I wonder if any other machine would have the same issues? 

joed wrote:

I am not waiting for the price drops any longer on the CA$607.50+tx Toro 221QE that I am sitting on, brand new in its factory sealed box. Back to HD it goes. Walmart just swapped out my Poulan PRO PR521 136 cm3 unit last night for a brand new Poulan PRO PR621ES with electric start and 208 cm3 motor.  (There were some false advertising and packaging issues that WM & supplier made good on.)

All said and done, this Poulan cost me merely CA$236.88+tx, or 39% of the Toro's cost.  Makes it hard to justify the costlier Toro when the Ariens is the main machine anyways.

I hope that the Poulan provides you with years of trouble free service.  Does Husky have a comparable model in their line-up, yet?

aa335 wrote:
Welcome to winter in Saskatchewan!

All I can say is that the 2 stages around me are working fine and my neighbour's Honda HS 621 is purring along nicely.  I have an old BobCat snowblower that Noah brought over on the Ark that ran and started fine this morning.

When you flip the 221 over, one can see that the air pick up is right on the ground.

I have a Stihl MS440 chainsaw that has a heated coil (ran off a magneto on the flywheel) for the carb designed for winter use.  Wonder why Toro didn't take the same approach?  Even some metal shielding would help.

Oh well.

saskwinter wrote:

Thank you.

AFAIK, Husqvarna puts out pretty much the same machine through their various brands when you are looking at this particular 208 cm3 single-stage unit, whether it is badged as a Poulan PRO, McCulloch or Craftsman. The same machine with electric start in Craftsman guise comes "on sale" once in a while for CA$400.

borat wrote:

That sounds almost like the Honda dealer I dealt with, at least as far as prices. They don't really care if you buy it or not. But I don't think that's the fault of Honda or in your case Toro. Some dealers are just awful and I refuse to give them any business no matter what brands they sell.

Steve_Cebu wrote:

Steve, I know that this is a recall on the Power Clear 180 but wondering if the ethanol in the gas is also causing the same type gas leak in the 421.

jackrabbit000 wrote:

Now that is a good question. I would think the gas tanks have to be rated for 10% ethanol but maybe the Chinese company making it used the wrong epoxy or something?

I don't know if the gas tank is made in China but probably is if it's a Loncin.

You might also be worrying too much. I mean you can only do so much research before you drive yourself nuts. At some point you have to decide on brand type and size and make the best decision you can with the info you have available. Nothing is perfect, not the 221Q/421Q,, not my 2 Stage Toro , not aa335's Honda and not even Rubinew's Yamaha. However for the needs that we have, we all bought what we felt was the best machine for our situation. I would not want to deal with Tracks tring to do my EOD nor would I want a really wide bucket as the angle there would leave a LOT of snow. Rubinew couldn't use my Toro or that 421Q because he has to deal with densely packed wind blown snow. aa335, well he has a garage full of various machines to do various jobs, most of us can't do that.

Your sistuation you need/want a single stage blower and Toro does make a great single stage (their 2 stages are awesome too!) in the end you have to figure out what do you want, are you comfortable with the purchase? You should buy what you feel is the best machine for your situation and one that you can afford without breaking the bank. Maybe you should look at a small 2 stage model or something? Everyone here can give advice and we all have opinions and our favorite machines. But in the end you vote for your favorite machine with your wallet.  So worrying about will it leak or break or something, who knows, chances are it won't but that's why these machines have warranties, in case they do break.

jackrabbit000 wrote:
The gas leak in the PC180 has nothing to do with the 421Q.  They are different engines, parts, and production dates.  If anything, Toro would make sure that the widespread problem of the PC180 is not duplicated in 2011 production.  Toro has pretty much captured the market share for single stage.  Widespread blunders like the gas leak costs a lot to rectify once the 221/421 units get out in the field.  Not to mention the liability for personal injury and property damage.

I'm with Steve on this one.  You can only worry so much about it, not one product is perfect.  It can be, but it would costs too much, but the engineers would not stop working on it, and you won't get to buy one until the marketing folks shoot the engineers. 

If you don't have faith in Toro product, well, there's Honda.  The HS520 has been around for a while, most bugs have been worked out.  Except the occasional component supplier change that may occur every so often.  Keep a spare carburetor on hand.

I assume that you are interested in the 421Q because you favor the 4 stroke, quick chute, and the good reviews.  Toro must have done something right to get your interest.  What else is out there comparable? 

I know that I've grumbled about my 221, but when it's working, it's really impressive.  I think that the 421 might be a great fit for you living in Alberta.  Given our temperatures, I cannot recommend the 221, however.  It just can't take the "extreme" (-25 to -35) cold we get here.