Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

For every new engine I ever purchase, whether in a new car or a lawnmower I change the oil after just a few hours of use.  I learned to do this because a new  engine wears in and creates small metal particles that cause excess wear if they are not removed from the engine, and even in new cars with oil filters the filter is limited in how small the particles it can trap.  In the case of my New Honda GX 270 engine that powers my Honda Snowblower, I ran the machine for about 2 hours, then drained and refilled the engine with 100% synthetic oil.  When the oil was visible in the drain pan it was grey in color from the large quantity of metal wear particles suspended in the oil.   I will probably wait another 4 to 6 hours of operation before doing another oil change.   Considering that the expensive new engine only requires a little more than 1 quart of oil, and it has no oil filter, it seems a prudent investment to add these very early oil changes to the maintenance regimen of a new engine.   Incidentally, Honda suggests the first change after 20 hours.  Based on the evidence of the metal in the oil, I would suggest that is far too long to wait for that initial oil change.  

I'm curious how others feel about this.

While i agree that changing the oil after two hours of running is a good idea with a new small engine and I would go so far as to change the oil again after about 10 hours of usage, however I would not under any circumstances use a synthetic oil in an engine that is not fully broken in.  Adding synthetic oil to an engine that is not fully broken will lead to more than normal oil consumption, less than optimum proformance and the possibility of the rings never properly seating.  FYI I have been building race engines for over 20 years and have seen first hand what an engine that was not broken in properly before switching to synthetic looks like inside.  Very clean and in a lot of cases glazed cylinder walls and poor ring sealing.

Carl

Many high performance car engines comes with synthetic oil from the factory, especially turbo engines.  How is the glazing problem prevented?

Are you not the one that was ranting on how if Honda says no grease they know what they are talking about over forum members? I guess you should do what Honda has in the manual because they say so. I myself change oil more than needed.

aa335 wrote:

including Corvettes.

I've been racing for over 20 years and my engines have synthetic oil in the oil plan from the very 1st lap but are broken in on the dyno and/or in the shop with conventional oil.

That said, I don't see a benefit to using synthetic oil in my snow blower than probably won't see more than 20 hours of run time per season.

"That said, I don't see a benefit to using synthetic oil in my snow blower than probably won't see more than 20 hours of run time per season."

Making waaaay too much sense. 

I use synthetic oil in nothing.  I even stopped using it in my snow blower.   Why use 500 hr. oil to do 50 hr. oil's job? 

Easier starting  due to low viscosity Heck it's only a quarts worth anyway

O

iLikeOrange wrote:
I used synthetic oil in my snow blower for the first three years.  Consumption was at a rate of about 1 oz. per hour of hard use.  Not sure if it was the engine or the oil.  I changed back to 5W30 conventional oil to see if it's the oil or the engine causing consumption.  Still need more time to get the results of that experiment. 

 As far as easy starting, no difference between synthetic and dino of the same viscosity.  None. 

You're right.  We're only talking a quart of oil here and there.  Nonetheless, why pay two or three times the price when you're not utilizing the expensive oil's properties? 

once an hour seem super high doesn't it?  I run Amzoil in the blower, have since day one, and don't see near that rate but maybe I haven't looked that close either . Gonna keep a closer eye though cause of your read.

O

iLikeOrange wrote:
I'm only guessing that it's an ounce.  Could be more.  What I know is that after an hour or two of relatively hard work, the oil level on the dipstick would be visibly down by maybe a millimeter or a bit less.  So, the actual quantity of oil consumed is unknown.  What I do know, is that it definitely uses synthetic 5W30 oil.   

Borat,

How come your engine consumes so much oil i.e., 1 oz of motor oil every hour?  Is this normal? This can't be normal and a good reason to change your spark plug every year.  My old MTD did not consume any oil.  Sound a little like my 07 4-cylinder Camry as it consumes about a half quart every 2000 miles or a quart between oil changes.

I have no idea why it was using so much oil.  I'm working on figuring that out.  After initial break in with dino oil, I've run nothing but Mobil 1 5W30 in it since new.  The engine has three seasons (approx. 75 to 80 hours) on it.  Synthetic oil changed every year with approx. 25 hours on it, plus topping off with fresh oil as necessary.  Maybe half a quart of topping over the winter.  Spark plug was fouled pretty good to but that was with three seasons of use on it. 

I've since changed the oil to Castrol 5W30 High Mileage conventional.  I've got around five hours on the new oil.  Pulled the plug it looked good and I've yet to see a significant drop in oil level.  However, the machine hasn't seen enough hard use to give me any assurance that the engine will not use this oil too.  Once I've put the machine through an hour or two of hard labour, I'll have a much better idea.  Just have to wait for enough snow to put it through it's paces. 

carlb wrote:
And yet for the decades the synthetic oil ahs been in use there has never once been any evidence offerred by anyone that that is in any way true.  GM puts synthetic in its high perfornace Corvette engines as do other manufacturers.  Breaking in an engine has never required petroleum based oils over synthetic oils, and no manufacturer of engines has ever suggested that be done.   Ergo, you stand alone in your opinion.

who r u to suggest??ur just another yahoo from suffolk county.Guys dont listen to him .follow the manual..............sounds familiar????

Knee_Biter wrote:
Exceeding a maintenance schedule is far from using grease where None is required.  Putting grease on an auger that never needs grease is as useful as adding tomato soup to the tires.  The engine always requires oil I'm simply saying I exceed the oil change regimen suggested by the manufacturer.  The tires do not require tomato soup any more than the auger requires grease.

gotoguy wrote:

Snowblowers are used in the coldest places during the coldesy time of the year.  Petroleum oils thicken and do not lubricate as well in cold climates because they contain parrafin wax.  In severe arctic cold engines must often be kept running all the time to prevent the oil from becoming so thick it won't flow.  100% Synthetic Oil has NO parrafin wax in it, and does Not thicken in the cold.  I'd say a snowblower is a very appropriate application for 100% synthetic motor oil.

either the manual is always right or its always wrong.Maybe its correct  sometimes........

carlb wrote:

I have tinkered with small engines, from time to time, even rebuilt the head on a 4 cyclinder Honda once, years ago, still I am no expert. However, a friend of mine is, works for an engine rebuilding company, has been involved with engines of all sizes, for many years.

When I purchased a new Generator last year(same one he has) I was going to put synthetic oil in it. He flat out told me not to, said the exact same thing, that the engine will not seat the rings properly, oil can pass the rings more easily, causing other issues, etc, etc.

He did say that if I was dead set on synthetic, that I could switch to it once the engine was properly broke in ( I do not remember how long, sorry), however, he strongly recomended that with a small engine to just stay with a good quality conventional oil. He stated that the use of synthetic oil would have no measurablel value to the engine life and would be a simple waste of money.

you can say what u want about synthetic oil .but the manual does not state to use only synthetic oil.Ur opinion is only that of a yahoo......Mr  NEW Yorker......

Oh I didnt know ny was in the arctic...or do you live in NY and snowblow in the arctic??hmmmm.....

You do have a valid point there.  If you are going to follow the manual then do it all times or don't bother or skip it when you know better.  It is a good philosophy.

Synthetic Oil has many advantages over petroleum, not thinkening is but one.  Dino oil breaks down from heat and creates sludge in an engine.  I have cars in the family with 300K on them and oil that is clear, you can't do that for 10,000 miles with the Dino oil.   Toyota had a problem a few years back with sludge clogging up their engines, not one case was seen in engines that used 100% sythetic oil.  The first jet aircraft engines the nazi's built in WW2 had to be torn down and rebuilt after something like 9 hours because the oil would solidify from the heat.  Amsoil, the first automotive oil to be sold that was 100% synthetic was begun by a man who was a pilot, and understood that advantage.   The advantages are easily worth the extra few bucks, especially when the engine only holds about 1 quart.  I always keep the machines I buy for a long time.  If I leased cars, then OK maybe it'd make sense to do whatever is cheap, and minimum and let the next victim deal with the problems, but that's never been me.

Thanks for the fair warning - I will neither buy a used car nor snowblower from you.

Synthetic oil makes my engine run at lower dB.  Noticed the difference after I changed from a conventional oil to synthetic.  My neighbors will appreciate this $3 upgrade and I feel better.

mikiewest wrote:

  Yes Guys, Always Follow The Owners Manual !

Sorry mikiwest,  But Oil Changes are recommended by Honda to NOT EXCEED 20 hours initially, nothing in the Honda Owners Manual suggests the oil may not be changed more frequently if one is enlightened enough to do so.  Oh, and don't take My word for the metal wear particles in the engines oil, just look at the oil and see them for yourself.  mikiwest may think this to be as complex as Rocket Science, but it's actually all pretty simple stuff.

mikiewest wrote:
The Owners Manual IS always right !  It requires the oil be changed once before 20 hours have been exceeded, I did that, I changed the engine oil after 2 hours.  How is that not following the owners manual ?  Do you understand any of this ?  If I decide to change the oil 20 times before the 20 hours how would that not be following the owners manual ?  Why do you make these comments ?

mikiewest wrote:
The HONDA owners manual tells the proper weight and API classification for the oil, How does using that weight and classification conflict with the owners manual if the motor oil is synthetic instead of the cheaper dino oil ?  Where in the Owners Manual does it prohibit using synthetic oil ?  So this is yet Another Bogus Statement  (BS) by mikiwest ? 

New_Yorker wrote:

What is wrong with you? I have been on this site for a few months while shopping for a snow blower. You have some good knowledge on these machines, but your attitude and ignorance make for some ruined forums. There are people like me who come to this site for knowledge not $#%* talking. If your going to talk $#%* all the time do it on facebook or something. Don't give New Yorkers a bad name. Change the oil whenever you want. It's your machine.

MN_Runner wrote:
Nothing I did or suggest is against anything in the owners manual.  If you imagine that to be the case provide the OM entry, and I will respond.

MN_Runner wrote:
Why ? Because You Would NEVER Want To Buy a Machine From someone who followed the Owners manual and even exceeded its minimum requirements ?  I would only sell something used that I needed to dispose of to someone wise enough to appreciate it.  So you are correct, You would not buy a car or snowblower from me, of that I am certain.

Hi Chxbeachva,

You are right on.  Keep us true!

mikiewest wrote:

ANOTHER BS from mikiwest !   Did I say the engine on my machine was kept running all the time in the arctic or was I making a point about the advantages of 100% synthetic oil to anyone wise enough to use it ?

mikiwest, I may have to just ignore you if the best attempts at criticism of me are what you've said here.    The word Inane comes to mind whenever I read one of these comments.

New_Yorker,

Just curious, what kind of work do you do?  Are you a physics professor? Or maybe a Southern Baptist Minister?

Chxbeachva wrote:

My responses to S#*+& Talk is to explain myself clearly, and "In KInd" if you bothered to read the BS you'd already know that.  Some simpleton attempting to say my advice is wrong or at odds with the manufacturers instructions when it obviously is not should expect such a reply.  Even the Bible says one reaps what they sow.  Read post #1 and tell me where I sow'd the replys I got ! The forums aren't ruined by me, just the idea that any lame-o advice is the same as the facts.  My advice is good advice, so try asking yourself why that causes others to criticize it.  I was not the one telling people to ignore the owners manual and grease something that has no need of grease, I just pointed out the truth.  That was when the whole thing went downhill.  That was who started talking S#*%@ Not Me.  And they keep coming back to it, not me, I tried to move on.  Proof - Read Post #1 again !

New_Yorker wrote:

That's where you took what I wrote all wrong. This isn't your first post. Your advice is great advise, and I have read just about every post. You were smug on some of them and now there are people here who just want revenge. But, you feed into it. I just got my blower recently and I need to change my oil so I want to read what you, mike, mn, and all the other more experienced people have to say. I had in my head just to have the dealer pick the machine up every season. It would be super expensive but whatever, you pay for convinience. I have taken the covers off the belts and am pretty confident I can do the work myself. So thank you all for your knowledgeable posts and who cares when you change your oil or weither someone comments on a boat in the background. This is for fun and if we didn't love toys so much we would have bought the cheapest shovel in the store regardless what size driveway we have. Thanks again. Happy New Year.

Chxbeachva

Changing oil is not that hard - you can get nice how to DIY videos from YouTube.  Don't worry too much about conventional or synthetic oil.  Just make sure you have enough oil in the engine and check the oil level before useage.  Keep up the good work.

You just don't get it do you.  You changed your oil after two hours that's great. The point people are making that your not getting is this. The manual as you say, suggests changing the oil in under 20 hours. So what happens when someone decides to wait until they have 15 hours of operating time on their blower before changing the oil?  They are 5 hours under the 20 hours.  If you believe as your constantly preaching you do.  That everything in the Honda manual can be taken as the gospel truth. Then why have you just contradicted yourself by saying " I would suggest that is far too long to wait for that initial oil change". (by the way I agree 20 hour is far to long but that is what the manufacturer and the manual says).
In your first post you stated. " Incidentally, Honda suggests the first change after 20 hours".  Then in reply # 26 You stated this "The Owners Manual IS always right !  It requires the oil be changed once before 20 hours have been exceeded".  So which is it?  The manual is always right, which right. Before or after. 

I just feel sorry for all of those Honda owners out there who aren't "enlightened enough" to know that they really should change their oil before or after the first twenty hour of operation. What does Honda care selling a replacement engine only helps their top line.

Gee, does that mean that maybe saying that the augers shafts don't ever have to be lubed may also be incorrect and an untrue statement under certain conditions? (which by the way it is). I held a broken auger shaft in my hand after it took a torch and a 12 ton press to get it out of the auger.  In a court of law that would be the only evidence needed.  To prove that the ever statement is wrong and untrue.

You're not here pointing out the truth.  Your here trying to point out your truth. Your relying on what a book is telling you and some others here are relying on their personal experiences.
But the statement that really put things in focus for me.  And the fact that you would make it, was this one.
" If I leased cars, then OK maybe it'd make sense to do whatever is cheap, and minimum and let the next victim deal with the problems." That's great, a real testament to your character. 
You should have left that one out.

Nothing personal.  But you sometimes seem to be shooting yourself in the foot.  Your doing the same thing that you say other are doing just from a different perspective.
"My advice is good advice, so try asking yourself why that causes others to criticize it."  I would say the answer to that question is.  The times you've been criticized were when you were giving 'advice" solely on what your manual told you. Even tho a few others here had actual first hand experiences.  Disproving your manuals advice. Now, your here tonight making statements.
questioning your manuals advice. (As per your fist post. And my first few statements).  After you found first hand evidence in your drip pan.  That the manual is not always correct.
What ever.  It's a message board.  No big deal.

Wow, once again a thread in this forum is going to be deleted.

Too bad, there was an interesting debate going on, with some usefull information.

It is unfortunate that some ppl can not control their angry, ego and/or need to antagonize other ppl.

Yes, synthetic oil has been proven to have better lubricating properties than conventional oil. It last longer, remains more fluid, etc. It is especially effective in automobile engines.

Is it necessary in a snowblower, well there are different opinions on this site. I personally will trust the opinion of my friend who has taken apart thousands of various motors over the years. My 14 year old MTD has only had dino oil in it, spark plug only changed once, runs great. My Yamaha Generator has only seen dino oil, and it will last me many years. Do I believe that engines need to break in, and seat the rings, Yes. Do I beleive that synthetic oil can prevent or delay this process, Yes I do. But this is only my opinion, as shared on a forum, to be digested with other information available.

Those of you who think you need to get hostile, antogonize, whine or be defensive over a forum discussion should really consider taking a break from this site, and let the rest of us continue our debates so the threads will remain for others to read, contemplate, and debate in the future.

It would appear that a certain participant's agenda isn't to share nor seek knowledge.  This forum is a means for the participant to placate his/her ego by attempting to assert their self perceived superiority.   If the rest of use were less than ten years old, he would possibly succeed.  However, considering that a great deal of participants here are well seasoned owner/operators of numerous OPE, his/her efforts to impress us, are obviously in vain.   We'd be wise to avoid responding to his baits.  Whenever we do, he reels in another fish.  

Regarding the oil, synthetic oil that will not see the extended operational periods that it's designed for, is a waste regardless of how one tries to justify the expense.  From my experience, there is no advantage to use synthetic oil in short OCI applications.  NONE.  The argument that it contributes to easier starts is bunk.  I live in a cold climate.  Very cold.   I had used synthetic oil for three years because "it would make starting easier".   This year I changed to 5W30 conventional.   It was 12 below F. (-31c with the wind)  a few days ago.  My machine stays in an unheated garage.  I have not seen even the slightest difference in cold weather starting between 5W30 synthetic vs. same viscosity conventional. 

Using synthetic oil in short OCI applications is an exercise in appeasing the mind.  There is no real advantage.  In reality, the additional cost, albeit insignificant makes it a losing proposition.

People can use whatever oil they want in their OPE.  However, when they claim that synthetics provide  advantages in short OCI applications, they are misleading inexperienced people.   

jrtrebor wrote:

You're not here pointing out the truth.  Your here trying to point out your truth. Your relying on what a book is telling you and some others here are relying on their personal experiences.
But the statement that really put things in focus for me.  And the fact that you would make it, was this one.
" If I leased cars, then OK maybe it'd make sense to do whatever is cheap, and minimum and let the next victim deal with the problems." That's great, a real testament to your character. 
You should have left that one out.

Nothing personal.  But you sometimes seem to be shooting yourself in the foot.  Your doing the same thing that you say other are doing just from a different perspective.
"My advice is good advice, so try asking yourself why that causes others to criticize it."  I would say the answer to that question is.  The times you've been criticized were when you were giving 'advice" solely on what your manual told you. Even tho a few others here had actual first hand experiences.  Disproving your manuals advice. Now, your here tonight making statements.
questioning your manuals advice. (As per your fist post. And my first few statements).  After you found first hand evidence in your drip pan.  That the manual is not always correct.
What ever.  It's a message board.  No big deal.

That statement is not me, but me allowing (Hence the word "MAYBE") that it is logical for anyone leasing a vehicle and then turning it in.  If anyone who buys a preveously rented -leased vehicle doesn't accept that fact he is probably going to end up with a car that has problems.  The difference between doing the best maintenance or the minimum in everything in such an attitude. Many people I know who lease high end cars like BMW's and M-B do exactly that.  One fellow bragged that he never looked under the hood of his 80,000 BMW or his AMG mercedes, he only did whatever he had to to maintain the lease, nothing more.  One 7 series he leased actually blew its engine and it was less than a year old.  So such 'logic' appplies to why many people do nothing except what they must.     I was the one getting criticized for ASKING WHat oil change regimen others adhere to with new machines.  I simply explained that I changed the oil over to fresh and 100%synthetic oil after two hours, and why.  If the statemnet was, as you say my character shining forth I would never share my good advice with anyone, least of all those too dense to understand it, and those too insipid to not be threatened by it.

As to the nonsense that this is my truth, who in their right mind thinks that not changing the oil more often in any new engine is NOT beneficial for that engine?  I advocated nothing more radical than that and got a barrage of idiots attacking me for it. Just curious, why do you defend those who do that ?

New_Yorker wrote:
Synthetic oil of the same viscosity (5w-30w) as dino oil has the same thickness at 20 degrees.  Yes if you cook dino oil it will turn to sludge, but a small snow blower engine never gets the oil that hot, not even close.  We are talking about a snow blower engine with maybe 25 hours a year put on it not a car that hasn't had an oil change in 15,000 miles.  These are snow blowers not jet engines turning 50,000 rpms.  I still stand by my comments Small lawn mower or snow blower engines are not designed to be run on synthetic out of the box. They use standard carbon rings and in most steel liners.  I have no problem with someone using synthetic after an engine is broken in, but, I would strongly suggest using dino oil for the first 5 to 10 hours of running.  Again this is not a jet engine or a turbo charger running at 30 to 60,000 rpms.

carlb wrote:
GM and their Corvette would disagree with you, the oil companies who make synthetic oil would disagree with you, and I will disagree with you.  Have a nice day !

I am not talking about a corvette with with High tech piston rings I am talking about a single cylinder engine turning only 3600 rpms with a plain steel ring set that needs to wear in. 

you can quote what gm and mobile one say and take whatever you want out of context but, they are talking about high performance automotive applications and we are talking about friggen tiny little single cylinder motors.

How many engines have you actually built or re-built in your lifetime.  I have built over 90 high performance V8 racing engines and countless small single cylinder engines. There is a would of difference in materials that are use and what these small engines are expected to do compared to a high performance automotive engine.

I will not comment any further in this thread or any other thread that you post because I suspect you have no real world knowledge or experience, you just like to quote other sources or you beloved owners manual.

And stop quoting what mobile1 or GM say about automotive applications.  These are not automotive engines just like they are not Jet or Rocket engines.  Automotive engines and Small air cooled engines are apples and oranges.

carlb:

He/she is a troll.  Ignore him/her.

Maybe I'm a little out of date but, I haven't seen a GM snow blower yet?   I'm assuming that they must be limited to the New York market.

I usually have extra oil leftover from my Amsoil changes so I use them in my OPE. Probably overkill but I only do annual oil changes in my cars and don't need a bunch of half filled containers sitting around.

New_Yorker wrote:
Exceeding the manufacturers service points is not always a good thing.  From personal experience (sadly) I can tell you that when the manufacturer says to fill your lawnmower with oil up to the specified line on the dipstick, and you greatly exceed that amount...nothing good comes from it, unless you like smoke.   LOL.  Also my wife had new front tires put on her car, drove home, and told me that her car was hard to handle.  Yep you guessed it...80 pounds of air in the tires...exceeding over twice what the manufacturer specified. 

Kinda like turning the volume up to 11

Ther are quite a few Tim Taylor homebrews out there that have some interisting points of view over the the use of synthetic vs. conventional oils.

My personal approach is to use what the manufacturer recommends while the engine is under warrantee and afterwards I switch to a synthethic oil. The reason is self evident.

 There are quite a few factors why conventional as well as synthenthic oils break down and regardless of what our resident genius's say about changing your oil less frequently with synthetics you should always be changing your the oil at or before the manufacturers recommended maintinance intervals.  Changing your oil is and always will be a key player in maintaining a long healthy engine life.

1. Carbon, which is a byproduct of combustion and why the oil turns black.

2. Impurities from wear and tear on internal engine components.

3. Moisture from condensation which is most common in engines that sit for long periods where the temperature fluctuates.

4. Fuel (conventional oil will break down much faster than it will with a synthetic since they are both petrolium products)

5. Heat (conventional oils break down extremely fast as compared to synthetics.)

6. Contamination (dirt)

A simple way to tell if the oil in your internal combustion engine has lost it's lubricating value is to put some oil between your thumb and index finger and rub your fingers together. If you can feel your fingers the lubricating value of the oil has been diminished and it should be changed. If it is black and feels gritty or smells burnt, change it. Additionally, if it smells like gasoline I would recommend changing it.

Starwarrior

I'm a gona buy me one of them there V12Ferrari snowblowers and break it in with mobile1, yep thats a what i'm a gona do.

"you should always be changing your the oil at or before the manufacturers recommended maintinance intervals. "

So, why use an oil two to five times the price when much less expensive oil will do the same job at a fraction of the cost?   The main benefits of synthetic oil is extended service duration and extreme heat resistance.  Neither of which are common demands of OPE engines.   Even cheap dino oil will provide sufficient engine protection for 25 to 50 hours in an OPE engine.  Synthetic oil has it's applications.  Being used in engines with short cycle oil change intervals isn't one of them.  It's a waste of good oil. 

Don't forget that conventional oil has been lubricating gasoline and diesel powered engines  the world over for 120 years or so.  The advent of synthetic oil hasn't rendered it useless.  Not by a long shot.   When the price of synthetic oil is equal to that of conventional oil, I'll advocate it's use.  Until then, I'll maintain that it's a waste of money in all but the most stringent applications.

carlb wrote:

Just as the 100% sythetic oil had enormous benefit in Jet aircraft engines, most of that transferred to internal combustion engines.  As to the alloys used in piston rings, bearings in engines, you would be wrong in imagining that the factories that make piston rings or bearings for a car or truck don't make the piston rings for your lawnmower, they do.  No one would incur the expense to use a different alloy in some and not all.  Just because a small one cylinder engine has not the complexity of a water cooled automobile engine changes nothing.  An air cooled 1 cylinder engine may well become hotter than the thermostat in the water cooled engine would permit, making the high temperature resistance of 100% synthetic oil even more critical in such an air cooled engine.  Besides the engine in my Honda snowblower is worth about a thousand dollars, and we're talking about one quart of oil.  I'm not just not gonna use a lesser oil and risk that investment for a few extra bucks.  Obviously you are comfortable doing that, and I am not.  We disagree.  Have a nice day.

borat wrote:

And we are talking a WHOLE ENTIRE QUART of oil here so you can save 2 maybe even 3 Dollars by not using the better oil !

There are reasons why a synthetic oil can endure a longer change interval, it mainly has to do with how much better the 100% synthetic oil resists breaking down from, heat and contamination by burning fuels, as well as the oil performing well before the engine heats it up in cold climates when conventional 'Dino' oils are still thick from the cold. 

Actually I don't really care how you maintain your engine, but anyone wanting the best protection should pay a few extra bucks each year and use what everyone knows is a better product with better product performance 100 % Synthetic Oil.  The Honda snowblower cost 3 grand, and a quart of sythetic oil is what ?  $ 5.00 bucks ?  Engage the Brain here or Not, your choice.  There's a reason jet engines can't operate of conventional dino oils, these are NOT the same product.

New_Yorker wrote:

What model snowblower has a jet engine on it? You did mention Jet engines and while those should use synthetic oil. I don't have a jet engine on my Toro, so I'll stick with Dino oil. Oil will not break down in operating a snowblower for 25 hours a year. Dealing with the cold is more about viscosity and Dino oil is also rated for viscosity. By all means buy synth if you want to but there isn't any benefit on a machine with such low operating times.

" the engine in my Honda snowblower is worth about a thousand dollars,"

In your mind maybe.  Here's a link to help you with a bit of a reality check:

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=GX240-Pulley&desc=Honda%20Engine%20%208hp%20Horizontal%20Shaft%20with%20Pulley,%20Muffler,%20Recoil%20Start,%20Fuel%20Tank

borat wrote:

Borat,

But that one is just a plain old honda GX engine,  not the Jet Powered GX version

I am stuck on a plane in TO, so I am posting this message with phone. If you google 'synthetic oil and small engines' you will find several links to sites and pdfs regarding oils in small engines! Quick summary: Most engine manufacture do state that you can use synthetic oil in there engines, however some do recommend that you break to motor in with conventional oil first! Manufactures do warn of increased oil leaks with synthetic, and recommend changing synthetic oil at same intervals, because of dirt and contaminates. Most sites and forums confirm plug fouling, caused by synthetic oil getting past rings, but not burning off as easily as dino oil. The recommended time to break in a small engine with dino oil in 50 hours, this was writen by a professor and engineer. My conclusions! Yes, you can use synthetic oil, but break the engine in first with dino oil!! Since you have to change at the same frequency, and there are other risks than can arise from synthetic use (I like my oil to stay in the engine) I do not see any value in using synthetic oil for the application of a snow blower! Please excuse typos, I am using a phone, very hard to read the tiny print!!!

carlb wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but I didn't know that Rolls Royce or General Electric had snow blower engine divisions.  

Wouldn't that be something to see?  An Airbus 380 with a series of Honda snow blower engines hanging from the wings.....  Maybe New Yorker has a picture of one for us to see!


Sometimes, we have to read between the lines and come to the conclusion that some participants in this forum aren't playing with a full deck. 

That's the problem with this type of communication.  If we were sitting in the same room with a certain individual, we'd have addition sensory input to quickly conclude that we're wasting our time trying to carry on a meaningful discussion.  

borat wrote:

I can assure you that you will never see a pic from New_Yorker of anything that he took himself.

Still it would be cool if someone could photoshop some snowblowers to the wings of an Airbus or even a 747.

Man all this jibber jabber about changing the oil!!
Now you guys are going to make me go outside and change mine!!

But I can tell you this!! I will be using the GOOD OL    DINOSAUR OIL!
haha!!! I hate change dinosaur oil  has done me right!

carlb wrote:

Well if a Ferrari was in your sights it surely must be a dream since you respectfully would not be concerning yourself with brainfart blogs to discuss snowblower maintinance.

You would be calling on your lawncare shop and simply writing the check. It sounds more to me like there is a Kia Coors Can in your bluestone driveway rather than a Ferrari.

Hee Hee Hee

Starwarrior

 

Based on the heated discussion ensued, I decided to change my oil out at 2.5 hours (2 hrs recommended by the manual) on my new Toro 421QE.  I did notice some silvery metal particles in the oil, not a whole lot, but there is some.

When new, I filled the engine with Mobil 1 synthetic.  After 2.5 hours run time, I've changed it to 5W-30 dino oil.  I would continue with dino oil from here on.  Not that the cost of synthetic was a major issue, but a small consideration.  My decision was based on conventional wisdom of folks on this forum.

aa335 wrote:

I am positive your Toro engine will run for many many years!! My MTD is 14 years old, and up here, esp the last 2 years in Lumsden, it works damn hard.

I estimate I put about 40 hours on it, before Christmas, so I changed the Oil over the holidays. When the New Yamaha comes in, I will be giving it to my Dad and I am sure he will get many more years out of it!

On almost all the OPE forums that I subscribe to, the general concensus is that one should use convemtional oil for the first 50 hours before switching to a full synthetic. The reason is the same as has been posted on this thread earlier in that the rings need a chance to seat properly. I'm no expert by any means but this advice sounds plausible to me. Conventional oil has been used for quite a long time and broken in many engines with no adverse results. I'm not inferring that synthetic oil is not capable of this but I'm not prepared to be the guinea pig with my barely used (about 10 hours) GX270 engine. I'll run conventional oil for a few years before or if I decide to switch to synthetic which I did on my old HS624WA at about the 7 year mark (estimated 175 - 200 hours of use). I just changed my oil yesterday (the second time doing so) and used Mobil 5W-30 conventional oil. Oil, whether it be conventional or synthetic, is much less expensive than a replacement engine.

[aa335] - " Based on the heated discussion ensued, I decided to change my oil out at 2.5 hours (2 hrs recommended by the manual) on my new Toro 421QE.  I did notice some silvery metal particles in the oil, not a whole lot, but there is some.
When new, I filled the engine with Mobil 1 synthetic."

I changed my new 421QE to Mobil 1 from a 2 hour break-in with the supplied Toro non-synthetic oil.  With only about 1 hour on the Mobil 1 oil - I'm considering

changing back to conventional oil also.    It's great to hear the feedback and knowledge from the more experienced members on this forum.

So after 50 hrs on conventional oil then switch to synthetic oil.  My question is why not just stay on course with the conventional oil period.  On my cars, I used convential oil for the first 5000 miles then I switched to Mobil 1 and will continue to use synthetic oil until car is gone (i.e., sold or RIP).  Also have done this (replace it with synthetic oil after 5 hours of use) on my inferior Honda GC 160 and GC190 engines and had  no issues thus far.  The main reason I use synthetic is it does make engine run somewhat quieter (perception only as I don't have sound meter).  If you prefer to go back to conventional oil on the new engine, just wait until Apr/May when the snow season is about over as there is no point doing oil change twice in such a short time.

MN_Runner wrote:
New Engines wear as much in the first 5000 miles as they will over the next 50,000 miles.  This fact makes it a good idea to exceed the oil change requirements during that initial 5000 miles and change the oil more often no matter which oil you use or which car you drive.  I usually change the oil 3 times in that 5000 mile window, with the first change at 500 miles or less.  The extremely close tolerances in modern engines mean that metal wear particles even smaller than 10 microns will cause serious wear on those bearing surfaces, so the oil filters won't collect these tiny wear particles from the oil..  Another concern for many is that new car dealers in recent years will 'Transport' cars from dealer to dealer by hiring some minimum wage driver to drive them with a set of 'Transporter' license plates.  I have seen many of these on the Long Island Expressway over the years usually doing 80 mph and weaving through traffic like a downhill skier.  How'd you like that car 'broken-in' by the minimum wage transport driver at 80 mph ? I saw a new silver Lexus just last week careening down the LI Expressway with its 'transporter' plates.  I now insist that new cars have less than 20 miles on them when I buy, or I won't take delivery because of this.  I had one dealer attempt to tell me a car with 200 miles on it was  a New car.  Unbelievable ! At least that is not a concern with a snowblower.

I concur with New Yorker. He hit the nail on the head. Follow his advice and you won't go wrong. As far as using conventional oil for the first couple of hours before adding synthetic, I can't disagree more. Synthetic oil meets or exceeds all manufacture specifications. That idea is "old school." Synthetic oil has been around since the 60's. Mercedes and Audi come from the factory with synthetic oil in them. They don't suggest a "break in" period with conventional oil. Amsoil 10w-30 Four Stroke Synthetic oil is outstanding and specificlly formulated for small engines. I use it for all my small power equipment. Ask Harley riders. A lot of them have been using Amsoil for years in their bikes. I have been using it in my Ford F-150 since 04. I change my oil and filter once per year or 25,000 miles which ever comes first. Great products and a great U.S. Wisconsin based family company.

This is the spark plug from my B&S Kool Bore 305cc engine which has been run on nothing but Mobil 1 5W30 synthetic oil after breaking the engine in with conventional 5W30 oil:





This is what it looks like after running the same engine with Castrol 5W30 conventional oil:
Don't mind the broken plug.  That had nothing to do with the oil.  Look at the electrodes.


So, from my experience, it would appear that synthetics may not be the best lubricant for OPE engines.....

Steve_Cebu wrote:

Who cares how long anyone has been posting in this forum?  Just because someone has posted a couple hundred posts doesn't mean they can't be wrong about something.  So bringing up the number of of someones posts in a web-forum and implying that gives this person some kind of credibility is a joke.  I'd rather hear the "right" answer from someone who just joined rather than nonsense from someone who has 500 or 1000 + answers on a web forum. .

Also, this idea that ... "There is no evidence to support your claim that synthetic is better in snowblowers but plenty of anecdotal evidence from well respected members of this forum that synthetic is not a good thing to use in a snowblower. There are a lot of articles that detail out that synthetic oil is not better. But you choose to ignore anything that doesn't support your position. Why don't you stop trolling in this forum?"

Who cares about anecdotal evidence and the anecdotal evidence/opinion about synthetic not being good to use in a snowblower? Show us, this forum, a couple of official/current articles published by Briggs & Stratton, Subaru, or Honda that say synthetic oil isn't good for use in a Snowblower/small engine.  People care about what a product's manual says or an official statement from a company regarding their product.  People for the most part don't care about anecdotal evidence and opinions.

Being as though Briggs, Honda and others sell their own "brand" of synthetic oil for use in their products (yes, including snow blower engines), I don't think they'd agree with the anecdotal evidence from random people on a web forum that say synthetic oil in a small engine is a bad thing.

In fact, this is what Briggs says about synthetic oil:
http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engines/shop/parts-and-accessories/part.aspx?id={DA63FF57-9C51-4B28-8FFB-88A1B7B56511}

"SAE 5W30 Using Synthetic oil offers better wear control of your engine, even under severe operating conditions. Since synthetics have better "inherent strength" they have the ability to keep functioning at the highest level for the longest possible time.

Synthetic Oil gives your engine better viscosity temperature response, better low temperature fluidity, better thermal stability better oxidation stability, lower volatility, better deposit control, and better wear control.

This in return reduces risk of equipment failure, promotes trouble free operation, reduces maintenance costs, extends service life, and long term engine durability.

Briggs & Stratton's best engine oil, warranty certified, for all small 4 cycle engines. The use of this high quality detergent oil assures compliance with Briggs & Stratton warranty requirements regarding the use of appropriate oil."

I guess its time for you to tell us that these long time posters in this forum with anecdotal evidence know better than B&S about what kind of oil is better/best to use in a B&S engine.