Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I would have to assume I already have 5 hours and being its 50 degrees outside, I figure its a great time. When I bought the machine I had the dealer put in B&Stratton 5w30 synthetic oil but it was the last one. Called around to a few places but seems nobondy has it in stock. Do I buy it online or can I use Mobil 1 synthetic 5w30 in its place. My plan was to stick with one oil for the life of the motor. My second question is does this motor have a filter, I would say not. Just trying to make sure. Is there anything else I should do after the first 5 hours?

stresst wrote:

hmmmm, First I will state, I am no expert on motors.

That said, I have a friend who has worked in engine repair for many years.

When I purchased a new Generator, I was going to put synthetic oil in it, he flat out said not to, it was a bad idea to use synthetic oil in the beginning.

His claim was that the motor would not 'Lap' in correctly, and seat the rings ect. as well.

He did say that after puting some hours on, with a good oil, then I could change it up to synthetic if i like.

But overall, he recommended just using a good quality oil, and increase the frequency of oil changes.

Thought I would share!!

There's no need to run synthetic oil in a snow thrower.  There's no advantage to it.  You pay twice as much, if not more for the oil but do not get the advantages that a synthetic oil is designed to provide.  That is, extended oil change intervals.  You should change your oil every year so why waste synthetic? 

In addition to the above, my Simplicity snow blower has a 305cc B&S Kool Bore engine on it.  After initial break in with conventional oil, I switched to Mobil 1 5W30 and that's all I ran it for three years.  My engine consumed it at approximately one oz. per hour of use and the spark plug looked awful after the first couple seasons.  See pic below.  

This year I switched to Castrol 5W30 High Mileage oil to see if it would reduce oil consumption.  Although my machine hasn't seen the extreme hard use it did in previous years, it does not appear to be consuming this oil.  I suggest you buy any decent quality, name brand conventional 5W30 or 10W30 and go with that.  You'll have all the protection you need at a fraction of the cost.







  

Borat is correct.  No need to use synthetic oil if you change the oil on regular basis (i.e., once a year).  For me I use Mobil 1 since it is only $3 more dollars per year and mentally I feel slightly better.  However, if my engine consumes oil then I may use conventional oil.  If you store your snowblower outside where the temperature is below 0F then synthetic may be better but if your snowblower is stored inside the garage then conventional oil is just fine.  Just change the oil on regular basis and check the level before each use and you will be fine. 

Borat, can you please crop your picture to be a reasonable size, convey what you want and not blow out the thread?

trouts2 wrote:

Anyone experiencing the same blowout issue?

Borat, that spark plug looks nasty. Are you attributing it to the synthetic oil blow by the oil rings?

This kinds of paint a bad light for synthetic oil, and maybe unnecessarily so.  Would conventional dino oil produce the same results?  I suspect that oil type is not the root cause of the problem.

aa335 wrote:
Yes.

I'm really not sure what the image of the nasty looking spark plug is supposed to represent.  If you are/were using synthetic oil and your spark plug looks like that, there are clearly other engine/maintenance issues going on.
In any event, there are other advantages to using synthetic oil besides extended oil change intervals...even though most synthetic oil manufacturers will tell you to follow the OEM guidelines on when to change the oil.  Aside from a few niche brands like Amsoil or Royal Purple, most synthetic oils on the market don't really push the idea of extended oil change intervals. 

Even though these are only  basic/small engines....You're dealing with machines that are really only subjected to extreme conditions, the coldest temps of the year...an advantage synthetic oil has over dino oil.  Especially when starting a cold engine.  Also, these are engines that typically have no filter, with the additives synthetics have, your engine is better protected.
The fact is, a quart of a quality full synthetic oil will cost you some where between ~ $7 - $9.  Is that more expensive than dino oil...absolutely?  But what's the point of penny pinching on machines that people are spending $1000, $1500, $2000, $2500+ etc on?
Sure I'll buy  an $1800 snow thrower but I won't waste an extra $3 or $4 dollars on a synthetic oil for it?  That's ridiculous... imho

I'm not implying you'll see a night and day difference between synthetic and conventional/dino oil...but there really is no advantage sticking with dino oil unless your intent is to save $3-$4  every which way you can.

Unless the manual/OEMr explicitly says not to, you can't go wrong with synthetic...and change the oil when manual says to change the oil.

The original detail in a reasonable size would get the point across without blowing out the thread.

Looks like you need a tuneup or check the rings.   MTD did not always order the best components in their engines.  There Craftsman products carried lesser 8hp engines than used in better brands like Ariens.  All Tecumsehs are not alike.   Murray did the same thing. 

Possibily Briggs who as turned to mass marketing their products is doing the same things with their offerings of Deere, Snapper and Simplicity.  I would guess Briggs could put what they want in their winter OHV's and still call them by the same name.  The Briggs Murray line is now showing up at ACE and other places.  If that's oil fouled maybe you need a ring job.

The origina cropped and enlarged to 640.  Plenty of detail.

There is no real advantage to running synthetic oil in a snow blower engine as previously stated. I can tell you from experience (i used to build race engines) Never, Never, Never break in a new engine with synthetic oil.  While synthetics are good for a broken in engine (normal automotive type use) synthetics will prevent a new engine from breaking in and it will cause glazing on the cylinder wall and will not allow the rings to seat properly. The end result will be poor compression and oil consumption. As is evidenced from the photo of the plug, this engine has a problem with its oil control ring, likely due to the use of synthetics being used before the engine was properly broken in.

Spartan:

I do not agree  with much of what you've said regarding synthetic oil.

The first point that I'd like to address is your use of the term "penny pinching" when in fact it's the wise use of one's money.  

"Ridiculous" is spending 2 to 5 times the amount for a product that will NOT deliver any substantial gains over an equivalent but much less expensive product.   

I've been working on small engines for over thirty years and I'm talking complete engine re-build on numerous OPE, motorcycles, ATVs, snowmobiles, outboard motors etc.  I own in excess of thirty machines with small engines.  Both two and four stroke.  Therefore, I have plenty of hands on experience. 

Since we're talking about snow blowers, I will give the forum a brief history of my use and ownership of same.   I owned and operated two Craftsman snow throwers with 10 h.p. Tecumseh engines for more than twenty years.  From day one, each engine was run on nothing but conventional 10W30 oil of what ever decent brand name for the best price.   Both engines started and ran flawlessly, never needed any work whatsoever, and never used a drop of oil.  Each engine outlasted the machines they were mounted on.  So your suggestion that synthetic oil will provide additional protection is a moot point.  If an engine can outlast the machine it's on, using conventional oil, why spend unnecessary money for an oil that will offer no rewards?  That doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it. 

I've come to the conclusion that most die hard synthetic oil advocates have little or no experience with conventional oil.  They've been sucked in by the promises and hype of synthetic oil when, in fact, there's no real need for it, in all but the very harshest of conditions or extended OCIs. 

Now, some facts about the B&S Kool Bore engine on my snow thrower:

The engine has approx. 75 hours on it.
The engine has 155 lbs. cold compression.
The engine starts on the first pull every time and is very strong.
I adjusted the valves and only the exhaust valve was very slightly out of spec.
The engine is fuel efficient but likes to eat Mobil 1 5W30 synthetic oil at approximately 1 oz. per hour of hard use.
It does not emit any smoke of any kind.
It presently has Castrol conventional 5W30 high mileage oil in it and so far, I don't see any appreciable consumption although that's only after a tank and a half of fuel being burned under moderate loads.

I've also read accounts of other people having problems using this oil in their OPE.  One person stated that his valves coked up so bad that he had to pull the head off of his B&S engine to clean them because the engine stopped running.  He switch to conventional oil and all has been well ever since.  It was that person's post that caused me to think about my engine using oil and to pull the spark plug to look for possible clues.  You have seen what I found. 

So, in conclusion, considering the apparent excellent health of the engine, what else could be causing the excessive spark plug fouling?  

Once I get to operate the snow blower under some extended period heavy loads, I be able to confirm one way or the other if it was the Mobile 1 5W30 synthetic oil. 

Borat:

Short answer:

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.   I don’t think there is anything  wrong with using dino oil, especially in a small engine.  If you’re happy with it, use it. However, considering the cost of the equipment in question I don’t see the advantage in using inferior oil at the cost saving of ~$3.  My suggestion is when you factor in the cost of the equipment and the cost/advantages of the oil, synthetic is the way to go.

 

Long answer:

I'm sure you have tons of experience working with small engines.  You might be assuming a bit much with your "theory" behind die hard synthetic advocates.  In fact, "I've" come to the conclusion that most people that down-play the virtues of synthetics are old fogies who are stubborn, penny pinchers, and frightened of change/new things/progression.   See how easy that was?

 

In all seriousness though...  There are countless used oil analysis tests which substantiate the claims that synthetic is superior to conventional oil and we're not talking about extreme conditions or extended usage.  We’re talking about typical conditions at regular oil change intervals.  It's not even a matter for debate, synthetic offers real advantages over conventional in the over-whelming majority of applications.

Anecdotal evidence you posted aside, when you finally track down the real reason for your nasty spark, you might even want to try doing a UOA test one year of dino oil vs synthetic oil usage.  Being as though you have 30+ years of experience, I know you’ll track down the problem.

 If you ever wanted to brush up on oil facts though you can browse the forums over at bob is the oil guy...just like this board has its own set of weirdo’s and true blue sources of genuine info, the same can be said about bob is the oil guy regarding motor oil.

So the facts are:
Synthetic provides better protection and in the over whelming majority of cases/applications synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil.  To my knowledge I can only think of one OEM that prohibits the use of synthetic in some engines (all of which do not apply to snow throwers).  I don’t think B&S, Honda, LCT, or Yamaha prohibit the use of synthetic in their snow blowers.

So despite synthetic being superior you’re essentially saying there is no advantage in using it.  My reply to you is even if the advantages for using synthetic oil in a small engine is positively minimal at best, when dealing with the maintenance of say ~$1500 + equipment it doesn’t make sense to use inferior oil at the cost savings of ~ $3.  If we were dealing with equipment that cost say around $30, I’d see your point about the use and extra cost on synthetic oil.

Finally, going back to this penny pinching term that you seemed to have issue with.  In the grand scheme of things,  saving ~$3 here and there isn’t what I personally would consider wise use of one’s money.  Taking proper advantage of a 401k, investing in the appropriate stocks, mutual funds, etc over the course of many years is more indicative of wise money use.  To each their own.

 

Here is a very basic scenario to put things into perspective.  Let’s say prices are constant and you changed the oil once (and used one quart every season) in your snow thrower.  Now  fast forward twenty years.

 

$3.50 x 20 =  $70    Your cost on conventional oil

$7.00 X 20 =  $140  Cost in using synthetic. 

So over the course of 20 years you saved a whopping $70 by using an inferior oil in your ~ $1500+ snow thrower. 

 

Ultimately I’m not here to convince you though.  If you’re happy using dino oil…by all means use it.  For some out-door equipment I have, (considering the state its in, age, cost, etc)  I use dino oil too...or more accurately, I just use whatever I have available at that time.

My opinion/ 2 cents, considering the cost of the snow thrower, cost of oil and the advantages synthetic provides, synthetic is the way to go.

 

Good discussion.

I wish I had the ambition to answer each point your entire post but unfortunately I don't.  

What you've said is pretty much the same old, same old that we get from the  "short on experience/long on magazine advertising propaganda" crowd.  I do participate in BITOG forums.  There are numerous participant there that aren't as enamoured with synthetic oil as you may suggest. 

Despite my desire not to embellish your response, i will say this:

Your repeated effort to support the cost of using synthetic oil by suggesting that you'll do a better job of protecting a $1500.00 investment rings pretty hollow when conventional oil will do as good a job for a fraction of the cost. 

As many will testify, most OPE engines outlast the machines they're mounted on.  Those same engines received nothing but conventional oil.  So, considering that there's no real or perceived advantage in spending the extra money on synthetic oil for the above application, one must ask, why would they?  

One other point, anyone smart enough not to waste money needlessly on expensive oil, doesn't  need opinionated financial advice from some unqualified OPE forum participant. 

 Wisdom is a precious gift.   The first step to achieving it is to heed the wise.

Further to the fouling spark plug issue. 

I pulled the plug to see if it was developing the same fouling issues and ended up breaking it.  Due to the extreme cold, my normally flexible plastic engine cowling wasn't as flexible hence a broken spark plug.   Just as well, I don't particularly like Champion plugs.  I've replaced it with an NGK platinum.

The business parts of the plug look good. I noticed a bit of oil residue around the surface of the threaded portion but that could be residual deposits that were on the engine head. This plug has approx. 4-5 hours on it. In my view, not really enough to prove anything one way or the other but it does look promising.

 

Ok! Now I feel drunk and light headed after reading this enntire thread. lol

When I bought my blower, I asked what oil do they recommend. And they responded by "any 5w30". I asked for an extra quart being I wanted the same oil if I needed to "top it off". When I mentioned synthetic he told me its a little easier to start when its very cold but its personal preferance. He mentioned "many are reading about the advantages online and I only have one left". I asked about breaking in the engine and was told all engines are ran for 1 hour at differant rpms before there sold. So with that I had him drain the oil and replace it with briggs/stratton synthetic. Figured I cant go wrong, NEVERMIND whats 8.50 for a quart of oil after I just spent $1500.00 on the machine.

I just ordered two 32oz containers of briggs synthetic from ebay. I will stick with this stuff for now. Thanks for the replies.

stresst wrote:

Acording to my friend who works for an engine rebuild company, it takes longer than an hour to break in a motor and seat the rings, etc.

If you are set on using synthetic, that is your choice. I would still think you may want to break it in proper with some good oil first,

Just an opinion,

Good Luck

stresst wrote:

Although Honda does label some engine oil as their own, their blower manual simply says "Use a 4-stroke automotive detergent oil" and in the next paragraph goes on to say "....use API SERVICE category SJ or later (or equivalent)...".

I am not a petroleum or automotive engineer, but here's my take on synthetics: their main advantage for almost any application is their ability to run much longer than conventional oils without losing their ability to lubricate. However, I don't believe these small engines are as fussy as some people like to believe (if they were, every one of these motors would be junk in 3 years), and that given that these engines are so unstressed there is little reason to choose synthetic. With few exceptions, snowblowers get run less than a dozen hours a season. If I ran a business with mine, I'd change the oil more often, but given how little they're used, I change it once a season. At most.

It reminds me of people changing their car oil every 3,000 miles "just to be sure", when the manufacturer's recommendation is 7,500 miles. If it makes you feel better, by all means change your oil over twice as often as necessary. But it is wasting money.

Borat, something seems fishey with "The engine has 155 lbs. cold compression."

"Seems", because I don't know Briggs.  That would be an extreamly high number for a Tecumseh (warm) and would indicate something odd rather than good.  How does a compression test sneak by Briggs compression release?   There are a number of people here with new Briggs-Murray machines.  Mabye a few could post some compression tests. 

On engines alive and kicking after 20 years on dino being proof that dino is good enough is a not much of a qualifier.  Some might say their engine is as tight as the day they bought it but from seeing many older engines I have not seen one has not degraded.  Run, toss and acceptably yes, plenty, but peak no.  I've never seen older excellent engines toss as well as a rebuild or one of the new 6.5 HF OHVs on similar body styles.  I ripped through the cemetary this week with a 7hp rebuild on a Areins ST724 and it was great.  It had not tossed that well in many years.

There is too much published on the added "slipryness" having a positive effect on rings and bore to deny.  How much another question.  No degredation curves for dino or synthetic that I know of.  If anyone has some please post the URL.

"Borat, something seems fishey with "The engine has 155 lbs. cold compression.""


Pulled the spark plug, screwed in the compression tester, spun the engine with electric start, reading was 150 psi.   I'm not aware if this engine has a compression release mechanism or not. 

Either way, if you don't believe me, take a compression tester into a dealership with same engine and see if they'll allow you to take a reading on a new 305cc Kool Bore engine.  See for yourself what reading you get.  Please let us know what the compression reads when you do. 

edited to correct compression reading.  It was 150 psi.  not 155 psi.  So, Trouts appears to have reasonable grounds to be suspicious after all.

As I mentioned before I bought my son a Briggs Powered Simplicity Model#1060DLXE in 2005. The dealer showed me a document that stated if you used Briggs/Simplicity Dealer Line Synthetic OIl it would double your engine warranty.Even at $6 a quart  it seemed like an inexpensive way to score an extended warranty. 

My unit which is powered by an L Head Tecumseh has seen 5-30 Amsoil since new. The advantage of the synthetic is it doesen't get as viscous as the conventional oil in cold temps and therefore flows better. I know that there is less resistance in the starter rope when cold than when I used conventional oil in a previous machine. I store my machine in an unheated shed and when cold using conventional oil it felt like the crank was turning through pudding.  

Marc

 

It was -24C here this morning.  Machine sits in an unheated garage.   I replaced the spark plug in my B&S engine then took it out to fire it up.  I have not experienced a noticeable difference in pulling effort between synthetic and convention oil of the same viscosity.

Borat "I'm not aware if this engine has a compression release mechanism or not." It does.

I challanged Friiy on this a long time ago. I later looked into it more and found they all have compression release of one form or another. They have to or you would not be able to pull past the compression stroke or rip your arm in the effort.

The 10hp I used in the cemetery tests has an outstanding engine just about new. It leak-down tests at 7-8% which is super. It compression tests at 60lb. I can spin the engine all day and it won't get beyond 60.

The exhaust valve opens before the piston can get to full extension so it's impossible to get a high reading. Compression release is engaged at very low rpm like starting rope speed. That's how compression releases work.

Depending on the engine either the exhaust or intake valve is raised before the piston can get very far into the compression stroke. That makes it easy to turn the crank. There is enough compression for starting but not full compression at the moment the fire starts.

Once the piston fires the crank immediatly spins at a rapid rate the comression release gets pushed out of the way (on mechanical types) and the engine compression stroke then works normally.

I'm not saying Borat is fishey. I'm saying the test result is fishey.

I don't know Briggs but they have to have CR or manual starting would not be possible.

The engine spins fairly fast with electric start.  Maybe there's a possibility the compression release is over-ridden by the speed of the electric start.

 Would you like me to do a compression test and take a picture of the reading for you Trouts? 

Just a thought,

Is it possible that in Borats test, since he was using the 'Electric Start', that the RPMs were high enough to disengage the CR.

This might have given the higher compression that would not be seen with a manual pull???

   I don't think he would get 155 without electric start so assume he was using electric.  Once CR is ingaged it's impossible to get beyond a certain PSI range, at least on Tecumseh.  I'm not sure about Briggs BUT if CR could kick out at electric start speeds the resistance would be too much for electric start motors which would quickly overheat and crap out.

borat wrote:

Don't worry, thats OK Borat, truth be told, I didn't read anything you wrote after this first sentence in your reply to me.  What's the point, really?  You shared your opinion, I shared my opinion and everyone else in the thread can listen to that or chime in with their own. Everyone wins.
That's the great thing about forums.  Seems like you're taking it a wee bit too personal and you shouldn't, really.  Happy snow blowing.

trouts2 wrote:
I corrected my original post to read 150 psi. not 155.   So, your suspicions weren't unfounded.