Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

All,
Thanks in advance for your time and any help.

Was out in more than 24" of snow yesterday.  Broke a shear pin, no problem, had most of the job done, thank God, when something got sucked up by the auger.  After that, the auger, shaft, and impeller will not turn.

Never fails.  Before the storm I always clear the sidewalk of junk and potential hazards.  Just too much wind the other day though.

She still runs and drives - forward and reverse is fine. 

Checked the shear pins, removed them, and re-installed, and they were fine.  Still, there is no way to spin the auger or the impeller.

I popped off the cover for the belts - one seems fine but the, larger, with the tensioner, seems loose.  It is still on and around the pulley, however, when the handle is engaged, it is still a bit loose for my liking.

Has anyone a suspicion or place to start?  I would really hate to take it down before determining just belts?

Has anyone a procedure for troubleshooting?

FWIW - it's a Tecumseh.

With the belt cover off you could try running it to see what is happening.

Maybe when it jammed you held the auger clutch down and burned the belt?

Maybe the key sheared off on one of the pulleys.

Maybe whatever broke the shear pin is stuck back in the impeller somewhere.

Pull the spark plug to disable the engine then get a stick and shove it down the hole for the chute  onto an impeller blade to see if you can turn the impeller.  Let us know what happens.  You probably have something stuck in the impeller housing that you can't see.

Thanks for the reply Shryp and Borat.

Shryp wrote:
Will try that ASAP.  What normally spins in there: (a) before clutch engagement and (b) after clutch engaged?

Shryp wrote:

Most definitely held it down - I guess a belt is the easiest way to go.

Shryp wrote:
Will check - cannot turn the large pulley by hand.  Pull the pulley off and check the key?

Shryp wrote:

Will check again.  Cleaned the machine last night and have it indoors.  Did not see anything.

borat wrote:
Tried that when it was outside and nothing would budge.

Thanks again.

If you did hold the handle down to engage the auger while it was jammed you most likely did burn the belt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz6Y2P1MCcQ

Not being able to turn the impeller probably means something is still jammed somewhere.
On the other hand, there is a brake on the impeller pulley designed to stop it from turning when not engaged, so that might not be totally bad.
Also make sure you know the difference between auger and impeller.  If you try turning the augers they generally will not turn because of the worm gear setup.

With the belt cover off and the engine running the belt should be loose and the engine the only thing spinning.
When you push the handle down you should see the small idler pulley take the slack out of the belt.
Then you should see everything moving.

I would not bother removing the pulleys right now as that doesn't sound very likely and you said nothing seems loose.

First step would be to determine if the problem is on the engine side of the machine or the blower side.

The belt would have smoked pretty good before it was damaged to the point of being unsuitable for operation.  Your immediate problem isn't likely the belt.  Don't start trying to pull off pulleys to check for  a broken key.  I doubt that is the problem.  I strongly suspect that nothing will turn because the impeller is jammed.  Check it thoroughly.  If you can't move the impeller by shoving on it with a stick, get a piece of 2x2 long enough to put it on an impeller blade and have enough to protrude through the chute hole.  Give it a few good whacks with a hammer to see if you can budge the impeller blade.  It might be enough to dislodge a piece of debris causing the jam. 

james_o wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXnq_5ZoCiU

Thanks again Gentlemen,

Point of clarification.  During the snow removal a pin broke.  She ran for two more hours and then she sucked up something.  After that, no more rotation.

Also, I believe the culprit was a rock. Whatever it was did not shear the pins.

Earlier on, one of my lovely neighbors left a bag of garbage at the side of their house which blew onto my side walk and was covered in almost 4 feet of snow.  Thankfully, there was really only only paper and cardboard, and I caught the problem fast.  However, some plastic wrapped around the auger shaft on the inside close to the bearing support.

After I inspect more closely, I am going to put a bit more muscle into the impeller.  I have years of experience in cars and motorcycles, but fixing snowblowers is somewhat new to me.

Anyhow, I am going to try and rotate the impeller through the chute.  Which handle, if any, should be engaged?  Does it matter whether I rotate clockwise or counterclockwise - as viewed from the standpoint of the operator - left hand on transmission side, right hand on clutch/blower side?

Shryp wrote:
In hindsight, there was that lovely belt slipping noise.  However, I never smelt anything bad and the belts do not smell burnt right now.  However, there is a good bit of belt "crud" in the area.  Hard to say whether it's from now or the past.  They'll probably get changed anyhow, but first things first - let's check the impeller.  Thanks for the link.

borat wrote:
I am going to try that in a few minutes.  Please see above - does it matter whether the rotation is clockwise or counter?  Should the clutch be engaged?  I don't want to start smacking something that isn't supposed to be rotating anyhow :-)

NotMoneyGuy wrote:
Thanks for the link - should have checked youTube. I did check eBay - it's always nice to see how the parts look when taken apart.

Thanks again, I truly appreciate your help.

You don't want anything engaged and as stated you should probably pull the spark plug wire just in case.

What we are trying to do is determine if the impeller shaft is turning like it should be.

You should be able to turn it either way with a little bit of drag felt from the auger brake.

If it does not turn you can try pushing the auger handle down 1/4 to 1/2 way to relieve the tension on the brake without fully engaging the belt and see if that helps.
When you push the auger handle it pivots an arm.  On one end of the arm is a wheel that pushes the belt tight.  On the other end is a brake pad and spring.
When the arm is pivoted one way the belt pushes tight against the pulleys, when it is pivoted the other way the spring pulls the brake pad against the bottom of the pulley.

The impeller can rotate in either direction without harm to anything.  I'd probably try to move it in the opposite direction of normal rotation.  That can't be done by forcing it to move downward from the chute hole account that's the direction of travel.  You might be able to leverage it in the opposite direction by using the piece of 2x2 and working the impeller blade upward instead of down.  Try to go backward first.  It might be easier to dislodge the obstruction.

Back again.

I believe I have all of the terminology down right.  I am looking at the pdf for the Ariens 924 Sno Thro.  It does not list my exact model (924082) but it looks close.  Hopefully, the parts are known by the same name.

As expected, the pulley closest to the engine rotates with a pull of the chord.

As expected, the pulley on the impeller side, does not rotate - either with the clutch down or not.

The impeller does not want to rotate.  I tried the 2x4 with a hammer and was able to muscle her through 90 degrees. Very difficult.

I have looked everywhere and there does not appear to be anything obviously obstructing its rotation.  However, I am unable to see a good portion of what's behind the impeller.

Facing the impeller, from the auger side (opposite that of the operator), there is no way to visibly inspect if there is anything behind the impeller from about the 6:00 - 12:00 position.

I tried reaching down to rotate the large pulley, with and without clutch - nothing.

Worm shaft will not rotate and neither will the auger shaft.

Finally, I did see some debris, likely from a rock.  Also, fresh scratches on the impeller housing. 

Ideas?

It sounds like you have a problem either with the impeller or your gear box.

Generally when something happens in the gearbox the impeller shaft will turn, but the augers won't.

You might have to break down and start taking it apart to find the problem.

Maybe you got unlucky and bent one of the shafts severely, or one of the gears in the gearbox shattered and they are now jamming up.

Ariens comes apart pretty easy provided you can get the big pulley off the back of the impeller shaft.

Even if you can not get the pulley off, removing the bushings on the sides of the augers might give you enough wiggle room to find out whats jamming the impeller.

Owners Manual: http://apache.ariens.com/manuals/024028F.pdf
Parts Manual: http://apache.ariens.com/manuals/PM-24-93.pdf
Service Manual: http://apache.ariens.com/manuals/00040600.pdf

Most likely you have it lodged between the impeller housing and the impeller.Check your clearance from front to back at all impeller blades to see if anything is jammed in there.

Sounds like something might be jammed behind the impeller plate. Unless you can access the space between the impeller plate  and the impeller housing,  It might be time to separate the bucket from the wheel drive to see if you can pull the big pulley off of the impeller shaft to facilitate dis-assembly of the impeller shaft/auger assembly.  

That's going to take a bit of work.  The augers bearings have to be removed to take out the augers, the shear pins must also be removed if you want to take the augers off of the gear drive.    Once they're out of the way, any support(s) for the gear box have to be disconnected then pull the impeller shaft/gearbox assembly forward to remove it from the impeller housing.   Depending on how tight the impeller shaft pulley is, you might need to drift the impeller shaft out of the pulley. 

If you choose to do the above dis-assembly, pay close attention to how things come apart.  You don't want to install your augers opposite or backward.  Make identification marks on the ends of the augers that will match marks on the gearbox to ensure you have the correct auger for the correct side. 

Before going through the above, I think I'd try a bit more hammering/leveraging with the 2x2.  You might get lucky and wiggle it out.

When you moved to impeller, did you notice if the augers turned a bit?

I am thinking if it is something stuck around the impeller he might get lucky just removing the end cap bushings on the augers.

If you want to attempt that all you need to do is remove the big 3/4" bolt and the (3) 7/16" nuts on the round piece on each side.
Then use a flat screwdriver to pry the bracket out.

That should give him just enough up/down, side/side, back/forth play to wiggle whatever it is out of there.

Shryp wrote:
Agreed.

No Luck, nothing behind the impeller.

Could there be something jammed in the gear case? Causing the impeller, worm, and auger shaft to all not turn?

What would be your next move?

james_o wrote:
I have read a couple reports of roll pins falling out or breaking inside the gear gase.  If it fell out I could see it jamming, but if something else was stuck I would think you would have some wiggle in it.

At this point I guess you have to start taking everything apart and checking everything until something fails to turn.

To check the gearbox you have to get the pulley off the impeller and remove the whole assembly from the housing.

One other thing to check would be the bearing behind the impeller.


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You might be able to remove the oil fill plug and look inside with a flashlight.