Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I've got an old snowblower that will not start even though we emtied all old gas from it , checked the spark-plug- ignition! and the new gas entered the carburettor but obviously not the cylinder why it didn't start. The snow blower is old but not much used 3-4 winters and for two years ago there was no problem whatsoever.

It is an ARIENS ST 504 motornumber HS 50670080 and serialnumber 93338.

We got a tip to change the diaphragm but does anyone know anything else we can do. The snow is coming in Sweden and I don't like showelling.

Right Borat, you may want to hunt for the 1% that is effective and it would be wise to read up on the damage that MTBE and Ethenol fuels are causing before you suggest alternatives.

It is not just about the flash point or octane rating of the fuel but also condensation and how ethenol fuels react with moisture over time. Just adding a good old can of Cristie Dry gas like you may have done a few years ago does not cut the mustard with ethenol fuels... (remember those days, 4 cans for $1.00)

Here is just one out of  thousands of white papers that have been published on the subject.

The introduction of water on E-10 fuel can be disasterous. E-10 can hold up to four teaspoons of water in suspension per gallon. Once this saturation point is exceeded, the solution separates and the gas floats on top while the ethanol and water mix on the bottom. This event is called "phase separation". Ethanol fuel can absorb enough water to reach it's phase separation point in just over 3 months at 70% humidity. While the phase separation slurry in itself can cause problems by clogging fuel systems, the more immediate problem is that the remaining gasoline has now lost it's original octane value which can cause poor running and in some cases engine damage. When phase separation occurs, the fuel should be drained and replaced.Fuel storage and winterization has to be handled differently when using E-10 fuels. Manufacturers are warning that fuels need to be stabilized if un-used for as little as 2 weeks. Not all stabilizers are known to be E-10 compatible. Non-alcohol based fuel stabilizer additives are a must for ethanol fuel.

Additive companies like StaBil, Tectron, and Lucas are making gazillions on fuel stabilizers due to the addition of ethenol.

As for Stig... Borat does have a point, when it comes to carburators and not unlike any project for that matter, if you take your time, work clean, and use a little common sense, you can be very sucsessfull. It's isn't brain surgery we are talking about here. Just in case though, I will start your invoice.

Starwarrior

It might be better to buy in small quantities and leftover used in the car.

"Doomed in a few months", isn't that a bit alarmist?.  There are people who read the forums and might actually think that some well founded caution.  

The accumulation of water in a tank over three months in average weather (sun and rain over time) is very small if any at all.  If there is some samll accumulation in the tank there will have to be conditions to make it have any effect.  Just what is that?  The water which would seperate over months in a still tank would amount (in my estimate from checking) to only a few to several drops.  That water in a still tank would form at the bottom and could possibly make it to the outlet into the bowl and sit.  It could then be drawn up into the carb throat and cause the plug to get wet during starting.  No great disaster there for that possibility.  What if the water sat in the carb bowl for a very long period.  Rust could form in the bowl, break off and plug a nut hole.  For that to happen would require a bunch of unlikely events.   When you use OPE you get it out fumble with it which causes shaking and sloshing of the tank.  The little water in there will go back into the gas.  When it in that state it will just be burnt off.  So for average events the accumulation of water in gas is not a factor.

You can get an idea of what water will form in gas by leaving a quart of gas in a large container outside for weeks to a month.  A small amount of water will sometimes form at the bottom.  With a little shaking it will go into the gas making it slightly cloudy and burn fine.  Most water that does get into gas is suspended in the gas and burns.  If it does make it over to the bowl it's sucked up with gas and burns.

What does Stable actually do?   Does it evaporate the water?  Neutralize it? 

From what I've seen by putting water into a large open container and adding stable is the same as water in a container without Stable.  If you shake the container water goes into the gas and couds it with or without stable.  After sitting for a long time the water forms in a blob at the bottom of the container with and without Stable.  Over a long time I don't find Stable has reduced any water.  With water gas and Stable blobs still form at the bottom just like with no Stable.  Stable did not reduce any water that I ever saw.   It blobs just like the water does.  If it's blobed up at the bottom of a tank it's not acting on the gas. 

Just what is the value of Stable and how does it do it? 

>>I've tried many over the years and have finally come to the conclusion that they're snake oil.   

   Me also.  Unless I see something concrete I’ll stick with the same view.

>>I did a few with various carb cleaners and got the same "no effect" results. 

   I did more myself with Seafoam and Stable and got no where.   I even did the dump into the throat thing a few more times with catches for anything that might have been loosened and blown out of the exhaust.  Nothing but impressive amounts of white smoke. 

 I’m dumping gas from machines all the time and put it on a shelf in the garage in large top containers.  You can see the water accumulation over time.  I never did that with pre EPA gas so unsure just what the difference in accumulation is.  It would be interesting to know just how much water would accumulate in old gas over new in 1 gallon over time.  I doubt if it would be much of a difference or make much of a difference. 

>>The misinformation we've been reading/hearing about the perils of E10 fuel is pure b.s.  

   Right, no consideration for extent or amount.  Water happened with the old fuel and with the new. 

>>I leave E10 gasoline in five gallon gas containers for five to seven months at my camp over winter with no additives. 

   Same here at the camp. 

    I guess anyone reading this could get a flashlight and look into their blower gas tank and refill tank that has been sitting for a while and look for any blobs at the bottom.   Don’t shake the tank before looking. If the tank is tilted like on many snowblowers the blob will be at the lowest level.  They are tough to see.  If none found note how clear the gas is and shake the tank.  If there is any significant blob you missed the gas will cloud.

That could be tested by putting gas, water and stable in a cup for a few days.  The water will blob at the bottom allowing the gas and stable to be drawn off.  You could then see if water ignites with a match.  I doubt it would.

When I get a machine I bring it out to the street, flip it up and degrease the body, internals and engine.  I used Gumout a lot over the years and got a can for cleaning the blower.  It barely did anything.  Quite a change and I have not bought a can since. 

I don't find carb spray to have much effect on most varnish but there are several types I've found and it works a bit on some.  I felt forced to use dips.  After reading a bunch many said the dips also are not like the old dips.  I now double dip with NAPA and Berrymans.  I use the spray for whatever cleaning it might do and to be a jet of something substantial to push stuck crud out from lodged places.   I also find I have to brush with carb spray.  I dip bowls occasioally to see how good the dip is working.  Some varnish it will make very soft but not disolve it requiring brushing or spraying to get it off the metal.

Yea I have to admint that 3 months does seem a little short  term but then again, I didn't write it I only forwarded it.

First hand I can tell you about one a young gentlemen who recieved a nice whopping $1,500.00 bill because he left the fuel (without additives) in his boat for 6 months.

The injector damage was primarilly due to the fact that he has a 30 micron filter in the engine that was not able to trap the contaminants but the real culprit here was the fuel.

I have very much the same setup in my boat only I have 10 micron filters in mine and I also used a fuel additive as directed by the engine manufacturer.

His injectors are clogged and needed to be commercially cleaned and tested. As for me, I went fishing.

I  figure it is generally good practice on my yard equipment to use the same maintinance ideology as if  it were an automobile (or boat)

Small engines generally don't even have a fuel filter which makes them even more vulnerable to contaminination. (now there's an industry cheepo for yah right up front)

You can take it for what it's worth but that is just one example of many and I am definately sold on fuel additives.

Not so much the stuff you can buy off the PeP Boy clearance shelf but I have found a few good ones like StaBil and I have been using them now for quite a few years.

It' seems a small price to pay for the problems that seem to be very common with E-10 fuels in boats, cars, and small engines.

Starwarrior

I've read that even Stable will turn to gum or varnish. 

   Conditions are generally left out of many discussions about fuel problems.  For example, I serviced a friends machine which was stored in a shead in the back corner of his yard.  The shed was under a tree.  The outside of the shed had a lot of green growth on it so damp.  There was some growth on the wood floors inside the shed.  The machine was about 10 years old and had rust all over.  The machine at best only had a couple of seasons left before it would fall apart. 

  The skids were worn off and the bucket sides being chewed off but it started on the first pull.  It was a surprise as I assumed it never had any maintenance.  I asked the guy about that.  He said he put the machine away after each use but did not clean it off.  He said he changed oil once a few years ago but never did anything with the gas.  Gas was left in year round, no shutoff, no draining of the tank or bowl and no stablizers.  First pull starts and never a problem with gas.  Lucky storage conditions. 

   It would be a different story if his shed was at the edge of the yard in the open sun where it could heat up and the temps get quite high.  Just say he left a log of gas in the tank and no fuel shutoff.  The gas in the carb would drain and more come down repeating over and over until gone.  That engine probably would not come close to starting in one season.  For another situation it might take several seasons before enough varnish started plugging things up.

   When I pick up dead machine I always ask about storage and what they did about gas and maintenance.  There's a lot of commen elements in the stories.

   Possibly the boat story was helped along by being at a dock in the sun all day.  Maybe it was covered and baked the fuel.  ?? Who knows.  There are lots of variations with conditions.  From what I've seen it looks like having a fuel shutoff helps out.  With a shutoff only a small amount will evaporate, at lest in the carb.

Carlb, thanks.  I'll keep an eye out for that.  I've tried all the cleaners in the stores around here and have not found any good at all varnishes.