Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I have a moderate-sized (maybe 40' x 15') driveway constructed with paving bricks. Additionally, I have a sidewalk I'm responsible for that requires me to trudge across a neighbor's lawn to access (don't ask...). I've been using a Toro electric, but it bogs down terribly in heavier/wetter snow, and the cord makes it impossible to get to the sidewalk, which is more than 100' from an outlet. So this year I'm finally switching to gas, but it seems like I only need a single stage gas blower, since my needs aren't too heavy. There are two I'm considering, the Toro Power Clear 210R, and the Murray 1695537.

The Toro Power Clear 210R is top-rated by Consumer Reports:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100677593&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=100677593&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D28X-_-100677593&locStoreNum=6204&marketID=191#BVRRWidgetID

The Murray is getting good reviews on Amazon, but reviews elsewhere are difficult to find:
http://www.amazon.com/Murray-1695537-21-Inch-4-Cycle-Stratton/dp/B002JIN6TS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1284054991&sr=8-1

I know Toro's a solid brand, but what about Murray? Does anyone know anything about the brand and how the model above compares with the Toro? There's also a lot of specs, too, which I have no idea how to compare. For example:

cc's: Murray 190cc, Toro 141cc
cycles: Murray 4 cycles, Toro 2 cycles

Does this make sense to anyone? Any recommendations/experiences/thoughts?

EDIT: And just to make things even more confusing, how do these compare to the Toro PowerClear 421Q, which appears to have a different engine than the 210R?
http://toro.com/home/snowthrowers/gassinglestage/421Q.html

The Toro 210R / 421QR / 221QR are mechanically the same chassis and auger design.  The Toro design is more advanced and it is years ahead of the Murray, much more efficient and lighter.  The Toro also handles a lot better, easier to turn and push around.  I played around with the Murray and I found it has too much weight in front of the wheels, which makes it harder to turn and tip back.

Despite the Murray older design, it still throws snow respectably.  That engine on there looks like a vertical shaft lawn mower engine from Briggs which is located far in front of the wheels and makes it extremely front heavy.  Modern single stage snowblower have the engine located right over or near the wheel axle for that reduces polar moment for easy turning and tipping back.

For a few more bucks, I would recommend the 221QR over the 210R.  The Quick Chute feature will be enjoyed for many years after you have forgotten the price difference for it.  The 421QR has the chinese-built 4 stroke engine which is new to Toro so has no track record of reliability.

2 cycle means you will have to mix the gas with oil like other small lawn equipment.

4 cycle means the gas and oil are separate like most lawn mowers.

CC is cubic centimeter i think, basically a measure of air volume for inside the cylinder.

As for ccs, the more ccs you have the bigger/more power your engine has.
cc is kind of the new horsepower, but each manufacturer varies slightly.
cc also changes based on the type of engine design.

2 cycle engines generally have less cc per hp than 4 cycle.
overhead valve is also less cc per hp compared to the older style l-head/flat head.



You should check your local craigslist, can get some nice deals on snowblowers there.
Just make sure you do some research, some people are way overcharging.  Maybe you
can get lucky and find someone that got a new one last year and decided they want a bigger
one this year.

Thanks for the great replies!! I'm particularly happy to hear from you, aa335, since it sounds like you have some first-hand knowledge of the models in question. I never would have thought about the location of the engine and its effect on maneuverability. The handling is pretty paramount for me, and for something that will last a number of years, definitely worth paying extra for. I also like the idea of the easier adjustment of the chute on the 221Q, though it costs $160 more at Home Depot than the corresponding Toro 210, which is not peanuts. Though, if the blower lasts for 10 years... hm.

Is adding the electric start option worth it for another $60? I understand it requires plugging in the snow blower, which isn't the most convenient thing, but maybe it's still worth it in case it's difficult starting the blower with the regular pull cord. I'd be glad to hear of any experience you guys have with electric vs. recoil starting.

shryp, I definitely like the idea of trawling craigslist for deals. There are some great prices on used ones in my area, but they almost are entirely for 2-stage models, which I don't have the room for, and which would be difficult for me to push across my neighbor's lawn to get to the sidewalk. Maybe as fall approaches more people will start thinking about trading up, as you say. I'll definitely keep an eye out.

Thanks for the help, guys!

billin wrote:
The 221Q has a few things that makes it worth $160 more than the regular 210.  Quick Chute, zip deflector, pivoting scraper, and ergonomic handle.  I guess you can forgo all these features if  $160 is that critical to you.  I think the 210 model was created with basic features to meet a certain price point to appease price sensitive consumers and to phase out the Toro 2450,  which is the previous generation snowblower that is more compact..  I actually prefer the 2450 smaller size and nimble handling over the 221Q, but it is hard to pass up the Quick Chute convenience.

A properly maintained engine and cared for snowblower shouldn't really need an electric start.  I have a 10 year old Honda snowblower that starts up effortlessly on first pull at the beginning of the winter season.  Electric start does comes in handy if you happen to snap the recoil line or for someone who doesn't have the strength to pull start.  Most people who are knowledgeable enough to fiddle with their snowblowers do not really get electric start.  Save weight and money.

If you think you might need it electric start, get it as installed from the factory.  It is painfully expensive to retrofit it later on. 

I never saw a reason for electric start.  As you say, more trouble than it is worth normally.  Takes less time to pull the cord than dig for an extension cord.

You might have trouble dragging a single stage across the lawn too.  Though the single stage I used to have would just kind of skim across the snow if I pulled it backwards through the snow.
Other thing to think about is just make a path across the lawn.  I used to do it all the time with a single and now with a dual stage.  Clear a spot in the grass for the dogs in the back and the
mailman in the front.  So if that is the only reason you are not getting a 2 stage, maybe think twice.  If you are expecting 6 inches or more on a regular basis I would say go for a good used 2 stage.

You can find older 2 stage blowers for $50 - 100 if you are willing to do some work.  Worst case you can probably make a trip up to a Harbor Freight and pick up another engine for $100 and for
$150 you can have a nice machine.  Could end up being $200 - $250 if you end up replacing all the bearings and bushings if you want and then you basically have a brand new blower.

If you look there are still new in box 2450 Toro's to be had. A simple no frills unit that will give you years of trouble free service if you use fresh fuel and run/drain the tank dry at the end of the season.

I am not a fan of Toro as a company but there is no denying their 2 stroke single stage units are the "gold standard" for that type of machine. Electric start is not necessary unless you are physically challenged.

Marc

mml4 wrote:
Good thing that  you point that out.  I recalled my local Ace Hardware store still had a few new 2450 GTS available at the end of last winter around $500 which was less money than the 210R.  Same engine, same auger, auger housing.  Something to consider.

All right, you guys sold me. I put in an order for a Toro 221Q with recoil start - it sounds like the Toro 2-cycle engine is the way to go, and the extra bells and whistles on the 221Q vs the 210 are worth the bump in price. I called my local True Value hardware store looking to see if they might have a 2450, but they had no snow blowers in stock, period. I think this is the right choice for me - though I'm in NY and we do get some heavy snows here, I just don't have the room to store a 2 stage, and the extra size/weight is daunting, as is the idea of changing the oil vs. just mixing it with the gas.

Thanks, everyone!!

Glad to help out.

Can't go wrong with the Toro 221Q, the best single stage snowblower.

billin wrote:

Be prepared to smile. You are going to love that machine. Read the manual and you will find that Toro suggests you use the TCW-3 rated 2 cycle oil. That is the one rated for Marine use as opposed to the type used in leaf blowers and chain saws. It has something to do with the issue of RPM. It was told to me by  the Toro tech line that the blowers don't turn at as high an RPM so they call for the outbard oil. I have been using an Amsoil synthetic outboard oil with almost no smoke.

Marc

I was more than a little excited to have the Toro 221Q delivered yesterday. The machine is a beaut and, sizewise, appears to be the best balance between my needs and my available storage space in the garage. It's very easy to maneuver and still light enough that I can pick it up and lug it from place to place without much trouble. Also, though I thought it might be a bit gimmicky, the Quick Shoot looks to be awfully handy. Not having to bend down even a bit to reposition the discharge chute is going to be a great thing when the snow hits.

I haven't yet fired it up, however, as I haven't gotten the oil for it yet. The only 2-cycle oil I saw in Home Depot was Lawn Boy, which didn't seem right for the snow blower, though I did pick up some STA BIL fuel stabilizer there to preserve the gas. I've seen a lot of recommendations for Amsoil 2-cycle oil, and based on that, I ordered some of their Saber Professional 2-cycle oil, which their website says is best for lawn equipment:
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atp.aspx

However, after placing the order, I re-read Marc's comment and saw that he was specifically using Amsoil's outboard oil. Should I return the Saber Professional oil and instead get the Saber Outboard? I'm not clear on the difference. Also, people seem to disagree on the ratio of oil to gas to use, ranging from Toro's recommended 50:1 mixture to simply using Amsoil at its advertised 100:1 ratio. Any thoughts/experiences there?

Billin-Read your manual. My Machine is the 2450 and the manual called for the TCW-3 type which is the outbard motor type. My 2450 is powered by a Briggs 2 stroke and came with a manual from Briggs as well as the one from Toro. Look in the briggs manual as well. One of those 2 documents will give you the correct answer.

Marc 

mml4 wrote:
I took a look at the manual and it does, indeed, say:
>> This snowthrower uses a 50:1 gasoline-to-oil mixture. Use Toro 50:1 2-Cycle Oil (Fuel Stabilizer Added) or an equivalent high-grade, NMMA TCW III-certified 2-cycle oil.

Crap. Does this mean I need to toss the gasoline already mixed with the Amsoil Saber Professional? What would be the consequences of using the Professional oil for the first two gallons and then switching to the Outboard?

Give the mix to a local landscapper and buy the right stuff.  On the other hand you probably won't do any damage and the majority of the Toro 2 stroke owners are probably using the incorrect type. If you are like me knowing  it is a new machine and now knowing what the manufacturer calls for you are going to drive yourself nuts if you don't use the TCW-3.

Peace of mind is worth the price of the correct product!

Marc

Not saying that you're OCD, but give away that gas oil mixture and get the right oil.  Toro know what's best for their engines.  Don't abuse that virgin engine with nothing less than the best oil  The agony and suffering of doubt is not worth the cost.  :)

Seriously though, you got a great single stage machine.  Enjoy it.

Okay, now I'm feeling a bit OCD and skittish about using that gas with the Saber Professional oil in the Toro. I've followed you guys this far, so I'll heed your advice and start things off right with a new mix of gas + Amsoil Saber Outboard oil.

Regarding disposal of the current gas mix, I've seen suggestions on other boards about simply pouring the gas into the 3/4 full tank of your car, which seems to make sense since the amount of oil in the gas is pretty minimal, and I only have 2 gallons of gas mixed up. I'll likely do that later this week and then get a couple of fresh gallons of gas and mix it with the Amsoil Saber Outboard oil I had delivered along with the Sta-bil fuel preservative.

Then, despite the lack of snow, I'll fill up the 221Q with the new gas mix and give her a test start. Better to know now if everything works than in the middle of a blizzard!

As always, thanks for the advice!

billin wrote:
Put the gas in the wife's car, not yours.  :)

Billin - that Lawn Boy oil you found is actually the perfect oil for your snow blower, and is the same thing as the Toro oil. The engine in the 221QR is a Briggs and Stratton R*Tek, which is simply a horizontal crank version of the Lawn Boy Duraforce engine which has been around since 1998. The Lawn Boy oil is TCW 3 and I run it all the time in my 221QR - its also cheap too and alot of home depots have it on close out.

Hey Superbuick,

Welcome back! Did Toro finally put you on their payroll yet? Hehehe. You're practically their national spokesperson.

I think I'm going to pull the trigger on the 221QR this year. Been pondering between this one and the 421QR, but I decided the heck with the tree huggers, I'm going to get a 2 stroke snowblower before EPA outlawed it. Sorry if I offend Toyota Prius owners.

There's a 1 year old Snow Commander available in my area, around $600 in mint condition. What's your take on it as compared to the 221QR?

Hey aa - only the spokesperson for their single stages - the rest of their stuff - meh, no thanks...:  If someone else produces a better single stage, I'll be their spokesperson too.

I also really like 2 strokes in general as you know, and seek to clarify some marketing-driven misinformation about them as well

Honestly, I'd skip the snow commander, especially at that price.  We just sold the one we had which was mint for $400, and to be honest, I think the 221/210/2450/3650, etc are better units.  They're lighter,  more maneuverable, and have the same power.

Superbuick, I'll see if I can convince someone at Toro to reconsider. It's a shame we don't have more clean burning 2 strokes OPE available.

I will pass on the Snow Commander, based on your recommendation. The Snow Commander is an interesting exercise in design and implementation. Kudos to Toro for taking risks. However, the weight and cost was just not in its favor. I'm glad Toro addressed its shortcomings in the current incarnation of the 221/421.

I must rather shamefacedly that I did, indeed, put the gas in my wife's car - it's older by a few years, has a larger gas tank, blah blah blah. In short, it didn't seem to hurt anything. :)

But now I have an issue with the Toro 221Q I was hoping you guys could help me with. In short, it won't start. This is what I did:
- Premixed some fresh gas from the pump with the Amsoil Saber Outboard oil, at around a ratio of 80:1, plus some fuel stabilizer
- Filled up the tank with about a gallon of the premixed fuel
- Turned the ignition key to the start position
- Turned the choke lever all the way to the right
- Pushed the primer button twice, holding it in for about a second each time
- Tried pulling on the cord

Nothing. I must have pulled something like 10 times, but the engine never started or even sounded like it was catching. I then tried another push of the primer button and more pulls, but still nothing.

I closed the choke, waited a couple of hours, and then opened the choke and tried again, pushing the primer button again once after it failed to start. This time, the engine seemed to catch for just a split second in mid-pull, but almost immediately therafter died - at that brief moment, a puff of smoke came out of the engine. Same on a subsequent pull, then it just went back to plain not starting.

Is there some kind of special startup procedure I need to go through to start it up the first time or something I did wrong?

billin - sounds like you did everything right, and these units usually start in about 1/2 a pull. The only thing I can think is that maybe it got flooded...but even then... They recommend 2 pumps of the primer but you really only need one pump (or none). Does it feel slightly more difficult to pull? You could pull the spark plug out (19mm socket) and then pull the starter a bunch of times to clear out any gas in the cylinder (if indeed it is flooded), or let it sit a bit longer and pull away at it. If it turned over briefly then you know it has spark and fuel.

superbuick wrote:
Thanks for the reassurance superbuick - I kept going back over the instructions (few as they are) thinking I'd missed something or messed something up. I'm not really sure if it was more difficult to pull after priming; the resistance seemed pretty consistent throughout. I'm going to give it another try after work tonight, first without priming and then maybe only priming it once. I'm not sure about removing the spark plug, as I'm not too mechanically inclined, but if I still can't start it tonight, I'm definitely open to trying!

Spark plug removal is pretty easy and I can walk you through it via IM/email if you want. The other option (albeit kinda silly) is to just return it and say you're not satisfied and want a new unit. I've gotta say in all honesty though, these units are VERY reliable when it comes to starting and running.

It doesn't happen to have a fuel shutoff valve does it?  Not sure if a 2 cycle can mount it to a place you can ever get to it.
Ok, maybe that is kind of dumb, don't think diaphram carbs need them...

Also does it have any kind of dead man switch like a lawnmower?

I don't think my old MTD single had either, but maybe Toro has something.

Thanks for the offer, SuperBuick! I got home too late last night to try again with starting the snowblower, but if it fails again, I may very well take you up on your offer to tutor me through the sparkplug removal process. Unfortunately, it's near-impossible for me to return the snowblower since I ordered it online from a place several states over - the price to be paid for cutting nearly 25% off the price - but, truthfully, I've heard so many good things about the 221Q now that I don't want to return it. At worst, I'll take it to a Toro service center and let them work it out.

Shryp, thanks for your reply. I don't think it has a fuel shutoff valve...? At least, I never saw one mentioned in the manual. The dead man switch on the snowblower only engages / disengages the auger as I understand it, and shouldn't affect the engine's running.

I trust once I get the Toro running, it'll be fine. My brother, who owns a Honda snowblower, talks about how it took him something like 10-15 pulls to start it up the first time, but in the years since it's always started up in a pull or two. Hopefully a similar situation here.... I'll post again once I've given it another try.

Thanks, guys!

Billin - I made a how-to for you.

Let me know if you need more detail or pics or whatever.

No doubt you'll have good luck with that unit. There is a reason why so many of those Toro singles from 20 - 30 years ago are still being used today. For reference, the 221 does not have a fuel shutoff.

Single stage snowblowers never came on my radar screen; I always thought they were a smaller, less expensive alternative with less power and capability. However, looking at two stage units I've found that while smaller, all but the smallest singe stage snowblowers cost as much as comparably sized or even larger two-stage units.

My curiosity peaked, what is the advantage of choosing a single stage 2-stroke snow blower over a comparably priced two stage with the same scoop width and a larger 4-cycle engine?

Speed of operation, huge maneuverability advantages, less maintenance, less weight, less space, clearing right to the pavement.

In the deepest of snows, the 2 stage wins, but everywhere/everytime else, a GOOD single stage is faster and easier to use. (key word being GOOD, because there are lots of crappy ones out there and that is where single stage units get a bad name/reputation for poor performance)

Here are some youtube links showing the capability of GOOD single stages.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZC4z8x8W4g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGtEJxemf3g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEHK2VO6jrc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_O6g_uHAA4&feature=related

superbuick wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

I can see the manuverability, less weight, less space. How does it 'clear right down to the pavement'?  Not sure about less maintenance; two strokes have always seemed a bit of a pain to me.

In the first two videos they were using only a portion of the small 20" scoop with a bit of back and forth rocking on what seemed to be 8-10" of powder. Is that typical?

superbuick wrote:
Thanks, superbuick!! Your video was quite helpful and clearly showed how accessible the spark plug is. Eight screws, take off the shroud, then take out the spark plug with a socket wrench. It might just even be simple enough for my level of mechanical ineptitude.

I tried again to start the snowblower last night, and it still refused to start - didn't even begin to catch this time around. My first step's going to take it to a Toro service center, since it's brand new and covered under warranty. I don't want to replace the sparkplug only to have Toro refuse warranty repair because I opened the machine up, but if Toro can't come through, I'll give replacing the spark plug a try.

Thanks again!!

DavidNJ wrote:
re: clearing right down to the pavement, the auger on the single stage blower actually comes into contact with the pavement, which you can kind of see in this picture:
http://www.toro.com/home/images/sn_38584_l_xl.jpg

As for less maintenance, superbuick obviously knows vastly more on this than I do, but I know that for 2-stroke engines, the oil is mixed right in with the gas. As such, there are no oil changes needed - the oil is consumed along with the gas, as opposed to 4-stroke engines, where the oil is in a separate chamber and needs to be drained and replaced every so often.

DavidNJ wrote:

I'll make a video this winter running my 221 through whatever the biggest snow is we get (hopefully not much...I don't like snow....but usually our biggest is 15 inches or so...knock on wood) I couldn't find a great one on youtube other than the honda 621 video, which is a great video. There isn't really anything you can/need to do to a 2 stroke other than running out of gas and fogging it over the summer. Maybe a spark plug every couple of years? 4 strokes need oil changes, and regular ones since the majority of them are not filtered. On a single stage, thats a pain in the neck compared to running it out of gas and fogging it (which also needs to be done to a 4 stroke).

First, that queston mark was an error. My guess is I had a question also on the line and deleted it, getting the punctuation wrong.

Second, 2-strokes used to come big enough to match any of the units out there. The RD350 comes to mind. Why wouldn't they use a 2-stroke on a 2-stage? If it was an emissions issue on the larger ones, many of the 26" and smaller ones have 208cc motors no more powerful than the single stage 2-strokes?

Finally, superbuikck, which Buick(s) do you have? We have a '38 Special trunk-back sedan..

They did have a 2 stroke on a 2-stage - I have one.  A Toro Power Max 726te.  The emissions issue is because of how lean the EPA wants things these days.  The last years of the 2 strokes on mowers and 2 stages were getting to the point where they could barely idle they were so lean.  I don't think there is much longer to go for 2 strokes in single stages either, which is a shame because they are the perfect match for those machines.  If I'm a manufacturer, I'm not going to spend the money developing a 2 stroke for an application I can get an off-the-shelf 4 stroke for.  Any difference in power and maintenance (which in my opinion both favor the 2 stroke) I can simply talk away with clever marketing: "no messy mixing of gas and oil!!!" (because dumping 3 oz of oil into a gas can is somehow less messy than changing the oil on a 4 stroke????) and "no confusing mixing" (which, as you know, is about as confusing as putting the right amount of sugar in your coffee in the morning....).  Problem solved, goodbye 2 strokes, planet saved (well, except for the giant smoke belching coal powerplants, but we need to keep those because, er, our voters dont like nuclear power and without them...uh....we wouldn't be in office...so...uh....yeah...nuclear is bad, chernobyl, bad!) (sorry....getting political here lol)

All the handheld stuff (where a 2 stroke is sort of mandatory for power to weight/size ratio) has had to go to stratocharging and/or catalytic converters.  Sure they could totally redevelop mower and blower engines with that technology but from a business standpoint, why bother?  Just throw a readily available low-end or chinese made 4 stroke on there and charge MORE for it.


Here's a pic of a 2 stroke 2 stage, and it works fantastic...even though I don't use it that much because the single stage works so well :-)

superbuick wrote:

I was under the same impression for the 421QR. The 4 stroke engine on that unit has unknown history, and it costs $100 more, and is heavier. It sounded a bit quieter and as smooth compared to a Honda GX160 engine.

I must admit, every time I see pictures of your snowblowers, I keep thinking this must be a museum of snowblowers. They are immaculate clean, as if they have not seen a single snowflake.

superbuick wrote:
This video is of the Toro 3650 in light fluffy snow, discontinued model, predecessor to the 221/421.  If you're a fan of 2 stroke engines, you'll love the sound.

Here's a good one of the Honda HS621 in deep wet snow and my favorite Honda HS621 SLOW MO

Singles are quite fun to operate.  Simple, nimble, small.  Allows you get close to doors and houses, in between cars, and moves easily around curved walkways.

Just to finish out this thread, for posterity... Got the Toro 221Q running a few days ago with the very patient help of the guy at ValleyPower.com, where I'd ordered the snowblower from. The key points:

1. He told me to lift up the handle so the snowblower was standing up 45 degrees on its auger, then slam the wheels down a couple of times. He said this was to shake loose a possibly stuck needle in the engine(?)
2. Thinking it might be flooded, he told me to turn the choke all the way to the left, i.e. have the choke totally disengaged so that it's not choking the air supply to the carb
   
3. He had me pull 20-25 times

After 15+ pulls, the engine started to sputter a bit, which encouraged me to keep pulling until it started up proper on the 20-25th pull. He'd warned me in advance that it would start smoking like a pig, and, indeed, it did. After working with electric equipment (I had an electric PowerCurve 1800 before this), the snowblower sounded very loud to me, so I shut it off only after a few seconds - it was early and I didn't want to anger the neighbors.

A couple of days later, I got a chance to try it again, and this time I started it up as per the manual's instructions. It took me about 10 pulls, but it started up again, and this time I let it run for a few minutes. The copious smoke cleared away after a minute or two, and maybe I was just more used to it, but it didn't seem to sound as rip-roaringly loud as before. I pulled on the handle to engage the auger, and everything seemed to be running just fine. 10 pulls to start up the blower still seems excessive, but I trust that it will take less pulls as the blower breaks in a bit.

The 221Q is, as people have said, very manueverable, and I have to say that the Quick Shoot, which I initially thought gimmicky, is looking more and more like it'll be a real back saver. The 221Q fits perfectly in my garage and is now ready to go. Looking forward to the snow!!

Billin - thats still way too many pulls. I would suggest no longer priming it. It should start up just fine with only the choke. Mine start with a single pull even after being stored all summer.

superbuick wrote:
Thanks for the advice, superbuick! For what it's worth, I tried it again this morning with the regular two pushes of primer, and it started up after 4 pulls, so it's definitely getting better with each subsequent startup. Maybe next time it'll only be two pulls! I will definitely give it a try later without priming to see how it goes.