Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Hi. My name is Krzysztof and I'm from Poland (Europe). I just got Ariens snow blower from my friend and after 2 hours of snow blowing machine stopped working. It was strange to me that muffler is red after few minutes and engine was not perfectly running but my friend said its normal. It was also weak for me, it went down every time I drove into 8inch of snow (not ice mountain ;) ). Today i checked spark plug, it was dirty but after cleaning it produces strong sparks. I turn round crankshaft couple of times and piston was not moving (i thing it should), i saw only one valve going up and down, i was unable to see other one cause spark plug hole is too small. When I try to start gas is going out from carburetor ( there is no air filter ?!?!?!) Please help me to identify Ariens model cause rear sticker is damaged.

Here's what I was able to read:
-engine Tecumseh
model # H70-130210D
ser 8305C
-front sticker
model# 7-10-m
serial# 26156
-rear sticker
model# 10M ?????
serial# 15192 

photos  Here

Sorry for my poor english and thanks for any help.

can't help with the model and other info but in order to run you need spark,compression,and fuel.if your somewhat mechanically inclined you can check to see you have all three.also the carb probably didn't have an air cleaner when new.my 8 hp ariens did not come with one.the muffler turning red is probably caused by a lean high speed jet condition. there are three settings on the carb that are external adjustments,the idle speed ,the idle mixture,and the high speed mixture.the initial setting of idle mixture is one turn out from litely bottomed(all the way in).the initial setting for the high speed jet is 1 1/2 turns out from litely bottomed. the idle rpm screw is on top facing to the handlebars,the idle mixture is on the left side vertical on the top side of the carb,and the high speed mixture is the screw on the bottom (middle)of the float bowl.the nut that holds the high speed screw is the high speed jet and there are small orafices in it that have to be perfectly clean.you can do this by removing the jet (which will losen and drop the fuel bowl)and spraying with carb cleaner and using a small copper or brass wire to rout out the passages to make sure theyre clean. someone else here can probably tell you the make, model,hp etc,or you can contact ariens www.ariens.com and supply them your snowthrowers info.good luck and welcome aboard our forum.

Probably I have Ariens 10M-L60D but I'm not sure.

From thing You wrote me I have gas and spark for sure but compression is out I believe. When I torn crankshaft and put finger on plug hole I havent felt any pressure.
I will check that again and probably I will take out cylinder head to see what is wrong. I'm afraid connecting rod is broken.

ps. what kind of gas should I use ? We got here regular 95, premium 98 and power 100+. 

Yep, definately a 1963 10M-L60D.
that year and model has a few distinct features that were unique to it..
easy to identify! :)

you can read more about it here:

http://gold.mylargescale.com/scottychaos/Ariens/Page5.html

I can also tell your machine does not have the original engine..
you have a newer replacement engine..
the engine serial number, 8305, indentifies it as a 1968 engine..

scot

This message was modified Jan 31, 2010 by sscotsman

I identified my model from this great website bur I was not sure :) Its really magnificent that machine from 60s is doing so well - things were better these days. I got German machine in my bakery from 1956 and its only one that never broken and we are using it every day. Now I have to check everything and probably I will need new piston and rod.

Hi again folks.

As I thought there was no compression. But piston is running ok but there is very little loose on piston rings . Problem is valve on carb side, its always up. I can push him down, turn around but when it goes up stays that way. Valve on muffler side is going up and down, and I cant turn him around like other one. I took out cylinder head and drain out oil (it was really black). I was unable to take out cylinder cover cause screws are not metric and have to get right key.

Some photos form todays work:

Looks to me like you have a bad/broken valve spring or retainer. There's a lobe that pushes it up and the spring should pull it back down. Not a good thing but a lot easier & cheaper to take care of than a connecting rod so it could have been a lot worse. I can't figure out if a weak or bad intake valve spring could have caused you to run lean, I can see how it could cause a rich condition but not lean ... anyone care to guess? Your dirty Polish workbench looks just like my dirty American workbench :D

           If the engine was running before it quit..  You may just have a dirty intake valve stem..  If the engine has old or bad gas inside.  The valve collects deposits on the stem when running and starts to stick or rub...  if You spray cleaning solvent or carburator cleaner on the valve stem does it loosen up and move freely when you turn the engine over?

Can you Email me a Video of how the valve is acting when you turn over the engine?

Friiy@aol.com

Good Luck,

Friiy..  

friiy wrote:

Sorry I get Your post too late :( Gas can't be weak, It's from Shell and it's fresh 100+ octan V-Power.

Cover is out now.  Valve spring is broken, also governor wheel is completly broken. I will put some photos later, have to work now ;)
I promise to clean workbench after work ! :))

I have downloaded Tecumseh Repair Manual for my engine - it's great !

Have good day You all and Thank You for helping me. This is first time I'm repairing gas engine.

Ok I got almost everything done. Problem was broken valve cap.

Plase someone tell me:
- carb and those screws looking good ?
- I cleaned cylinder before photo, is it good or should I change piston rings ?
- should I poler valve holes ?
- can this valve stay ?

 

 My friend,  I would put it back together with the only the replacement parts for what is broke...   I think the valve spring keeper and parts are available separate.  The engine may have plenty of power in its current state,  even a engine that burns oil will run for years if taken care of...

IF you decide to change the valve,  you will have to resurface the face, cut the seat of the valve and set the clearance,   this will take tools you may not have access to do.. 

The needle valve screws look good, but you need to change the o-ring on the one with the seal...

Good luck,

Friiy    

the needles could use a good bath in carb cleaner and the brass seat(high speed jet) pictured in the middle with the gasket make sure the holes on the inside are absolutely clean.there should be a couple of small passages.  a small fine stainless wire and  cleaner will do the trick.

Big thanks ! I'm really greatfull and happy I found this forums and You guys :)
I'm preparing parts list to order - I found outdoordistributors.com is it good one ?

One more thing. Could I take out ignition with those screws on photo without resetting it ?
I want to change oil seal on both sides.

   Those two screws are part of the adjustment for timing.  They hold the stator on and the slots below allow the stator to rotate slightly to control when the points will open in relation to the rotating crank shaft dwell. 

 

   Since you are doing so much work and in there it might be a good time to change the points and condenser.  Put them in, set the points to .020 at the peak of the dwell on the crank.

 

   Then check with an ohmmeter when the points open.   First remove the coil wire at the side of the holder and put one side of a multimeter there. 

 

   Put the other side of the mulitmeter (set to ohms) to the point side with the screw.  

 

   Do this with the head off so you can see how far away the piston is from TDC.  When it’s at .080 from the top (TDC) you want the points to just open i.e .080 Before Top Dead Center, BTDC. 

 

   Turn the crank with the flywheel and note when the points open by the multimeter reading going from many ohms to zero.  You can slightly change when the points open by rotating the stator when those two screws are loosened.  Get the points to just open when the piston is .080 from the top of it’s travel then screw down the screws.  Recheck it through several turns to make sure when it’s opening. 

 

   This procedure is described in the Tecumseh 3-11hp L-Head manual.  They do it with the head on which requires an expensive special tool to read the .080.  Since you have it all apart you can do it without the tool when you put the crank back in and before the head goes on. 

OK. I will probably have parts within 2 weeks so I'll try to get gap meters to do it like book says :) Wish me luck because I need lots of it !

I zoomed in on the picture of the points. They look to have a lot of life left in them. Personally, I wouldn't touch them if you're getting strong spark. However, while you have them exposed, carefully spread the points and inspect the surfaces. if they're clean, check the gap and adjust if necessary. If they have corrosion or dirt on them, take a small piece of sandpaper, fold it over to have abrasives on both sides and clean the points surfaces. Then adjust if necessary. Points that are kept clean a dry can give very long service life especially in an engine used seasonally.

Where are the "points"?

which photo are they in?

im still trying to figure out exactly what the points are..

thanks, Scot

I cleaned almost all snowblower, for carb parts I will have ultrasonic cleaner . Now just have to wait long time for parts :(

  

Put a couple drops of light oil into the piece of felt that rubs against the cam lobe. It lubricates the cam surface/points actuator.

Borat - how can you tell from the photo the points are not pitted or weld distorted without seeing their surface?

         Well,  it was running when it blew up,   and lawnmower points only run one spark plug/ one cylinder....  Automotive points run 4, 6 or 8 cylinders (plugs on one set of contacts )-and run all the time..... Not just a hour here and there like yard stuff.    They get a lot less wear,  and when they fail,  they don't run (no room for misfire on a single cylinder)

Friiy

   The points were working, OK.  When they fail they generally fail for good, OK.  What does that have to do with looking at points from the side side, not being able to see their surface and determining they “have a lot of life left in them”?  

 

    Points can operate fine while degrading.  They can run while slowly degrading from pitting, welding and carbon.  That the engine was running is no indicator of the condition of the points or future life.

 

    Changing under the flywheel points on an older Tecumseh engine is not like poping off the exposed distributor cap on a car engine.  On his old H70 the points are under the flywheel and head bolts have to be undone to get the cowling off along with the gas line.  Flywheels usually are stuck on pretty well and can be a pain to get off.  If the points were pitted or worn and working I’d change them along with the condenser to avoid going in there later but I would not know that unless their surface could be seen.

Friiy: Thank you for providing a good common sense reply on my behalf to Mr. Trouts query. Trouts: It would appear that you are trolling for another pi$$ing match. Not interested thank you.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe you guys are not familiar with that H70 and how old it is.  It’s typical to open those up and find pitted points even though they are working.  It would be numb to not swap them out while your in there.  Also the condenser.

 

Don’t understand why asking how you can say the points are in ok condition without looking at their surface. Asking how you know that is not a troll post.  I’ve opened up plenty of them and can’t tell and that’s with being there not a picture which does not show their surface.  ??

Serviceman: "Yes I changed the oil and spark plug, lubed everything up, and inspected the belts like you had requested. One quart of oil at $10.00, one spark plug at $8.00, and both belts needed replacement, they're $30.00 each, labour was 1.5 hours for that at $80.00./hr. is $120.00. Considering the age of your machine, I thought it best to check the points and condenser. They looked alright but considering I had the machine in the shop, I thought it would be best to change them. Let's see now..., yeah...., parts came to $19.95 and the labour was,.....ah yeah,,,....2 hrs. labour is $160.00, plus shop fee of $8.00. So, your oil change and tune up comes a grand total of only $385.95 plus taxes......" Some habits are hard to break......

The situation here is the guy has opened up his machine and taken off the stator. It would be remiss to not change the condenser and unless they looked almost new the points also. He’s doing his own work and the cost trivial. Service guys don’t nilly-willy check under the flywheel points. I have never read or heard of that as a check during service, never. What’s with the fantasy? This week I changed out the condenser and points on three old H70’s. All were running before disassembly that was done because of broken rods. It would have been numb not to change them out as they were right there and the cost so inexpensive. All were worn and partly pitted as is the case with everyone I’ve ever opened except one which had almost new points. I check them by looking.

     Yes, the cost is trivial,  the seal is being replaced,  which is have half the problems with Tec.  points.   We are not talking about Briggs points  which is have the plunger that can leak or wear also (twice as much to wear...)....  Points if they are set right and clean when last replaced will last  A LONG Time......  condensers last a LONG Time ....  I have Two Bendix magnetos on my Cessna,  each is running 6 plugs on 1 set of points.   I do more damage to the magenetos and points "checking them" per the manual then I put wear on them...  The condensers on the plane are 20 years old,  the points are about 22 years old,  And there is no need to change them untill there is a problem..  The condensor/ cap is more of a problem than the points...

     Also, the guy is in Poland,   putting together a engine that parts are getting harder to get for.  If it's a concern, replace ALL points with electronic ignition...

I don't paint engines,  I don't do valve jobs on engines that don't need it,   I don't put rings in engines "just because it's open".   Everything has a service life and everything is repairable for a cost...

100% no failure rate is overbuilt and too expensive,  I have a feeling that the points in the engine will last as long as the seal he is replaceing on the crank...

My rant,

Friiy

1.Refocusing the point:

The issue was asking how someone could tell points were or were not required by looking at a photo of the edge of a set of points.

2.Addressing the morph into maintenance philosophy:

Friiy – your point has been points last a long time so don’t replace them. Wait for failure. Fine if we’re talking about an engine being worked on for a carb or replacing a pull rope. But if the engine is being opened for some reason and the points exposed it would be irresponsible to not check the points by looking. What might be missed here is the engine the poster is working on is about 42 years old.

Just about all of these old timers I open have points that are pitted, welding or wear. If I’m in there for some other reason and the points show wear I replace them. The engines I do this type of work on are usually 30 to 45 years old, all Tecumseh with a Briggs here and there. For these older engines with a broken rods I replace the rings as a given and lap the valves. Condensers on all of them get replaced along with the points unless just about new. I don’t do general repair work for people. The work is on engines I own and will use later on snowblower bodies. It’s very typical of the older better machines for the bodies to outlast their engines. There’s a lot of great Ariens bodies with tired engines and lots of them with broken rods. If the bores meet spec they get “rebuilt”. I could save a bunch of time and money to just replace the broken part, put the thing together and sell it. The buyer would never notice anything. He’d have a running working snowblower that worked fine. What I try to do is get a machine that will last a minimum of 5 years, body and engine. When doing a fix on an engine I replace anything that might fail in the future. The same with the body.

>>For you, Friiy, “If it's a concern, replace ALL points with electronic ignition...”

Fine, that’s your take. Points are very available and can last 20 years so for me regular points are fine.

 >>I don't paint engines, I don't do valve jobs on engines that don't need it, I don't put rings in engines "just because it's open".

Some people do preventative maintenance depending on the situation. It seems you’d wait until something is broken. If that works for you fine.

 >>I have a feeling that the points in the engine will last as long as the seal he is replaceing on the crank...

The points in there could be original and 42 years old. I would not be so confident they would last another 20 but I’d check by looking.

   I  have always understood that points don't "go bad" and wear, condensers go bad, cause arching, and then ruin points..

      Always check/look at the points,  and he will have to gap them after the seal.....   but to change them for age is over kill.   The only thing I really believe is to "shot-gun" parts or maintence is a waste of money and time..  Only one problem keeps a engine from starting one day to the next,  anything else is Preventative Maintenance (which I do believe in, it's my livelihood on aircraft).. 

--But people say on this forum every day "It won't start--- I put  a new plug, wire boot, cleaned the carb, ran Seafoam, changed oil, gapped the magneto/cleaned the magnet (?), changed the fuel line, changed the points,decarbonized the head,  replaced the flywheel key, cleaned the air filter, changed the intake gasket. and now I FIXED IT"....  -----and all I want to say is,   what was wrong?.    I think such posts do nothing for the forum,  no-one learns a thing.  The poster never new what was wrong,  and the unexperienced reader thinks that is a "Fix"... 

   I 'm not building museum pieces nor am I falling in love / sleeping with equipment.. 

Problems have symptoms,  cause and effect.....

This isn't a pissing match,  just a point of view.....I have alot of respect for your posts/info Trouts and I find it refreshing to interact with you on the forum.  I hope I have not offended you or anyone else (it's not my intent, but I do like to poke fun-  we're all friends-right?) ----- It's just my opinion... 

Signed, cost effective maintence tech.

Friiy

Borat reporting in from Hawaii. Yes, I'm on vacation but I brought my laptop with me and good fortune has blessed us with free wi-fi in our condo. Nice... Quoting Trouts: The issue was asking how someone could tell points were or were not required by looking at a photo of the edge of a set of points. "... Look at the picture of the points. The points surfaces are plenty thick, indicating very little wear, flat and making perfect contact. For all intents and purposes, they look virtually new. I've seen many sets of points that looked much worse and still functioned flawlessly. I didn't tell the O.P. to ignore them. I specifically stated to inspect, clean if necessary and gap accordingly. I'd be willing to bet that those points will last as long as the engine does. I agree with Friiy. If the parts are not obviously worn or damaged and performing as intended, why change them? My neighbour at camp blew up his old 1964 Chrysler outboard several years ago and was short a motor for his boat. His kids were rowing the boat to go fishing. I had an old 1976 Johnson outboard that I stopped using a long time ago because I had bought new engines. I told my neighbour he could have the Johnson for nothing. He and the kids were pleased as could be to have a motor again. Before giving it to him, I replaced the water pump impeller, changed bottom end gear lube, put on a new fuel pump, and cleaned the carb. I popped off the flywheel and checked the points. Other than being out of adjustment, they looked fine. I did exactly as I had recommended that O.P. to do. I put the engine back together, put it on their boat and fired it right up. That engine has two sets of points that appeared to be original. To this day, the engine is running as good as new. So, what's that? 34 years on a 7000 rpm outboard motor. I'm confident that the O.P. points will be just fine.

I have to say, this is one of the best threads on here.  A lot of you guys have great experience with small engine repair, and I'm finding this extremely valuable.    Thanks very much.

I have an old, built like a tank, Snapper rear tine rototiller with a Briggs engine.  It stays in my shed and this past spring it wouldn't start.  I went through the normal diagnostic routine and discovered that it had no spark.  A new spark plug didn't resolve the issue.  So I started tearing the engine down, pulled the flywheel, and discovered that spiders had built one hell of a web all around the points and condenser.  It was a real mess.  After I cleaned everything up the points looked fine but still no spark.  For $6.24 I bought a replacement points and condenser kit, installed it, and bingo I had spark.  The problem was the condenser which visually looked good. 

As a weekend do-it-yourself guy I can tell you that getting to the points and condenser on that Briggs engine was not easy for me.  So for the nominal cost (I wasn't paying for labor) I didn't think twice about replacing any wear items behind that flywheel.  I can see both sides as I wouldn't want to pay unnecessary repair costs to fix something that was working.  But as a DIY project I can certainly see replacing hard to get at wear parts that have a nominal cost. 

So it 's a philosophical debate which means that there is no absolute right nor wrong approach.

Paul 

Didn't your Snapper/ Briggs engine have a Cover over the Points unit?  (spiders?)...

Was it the set of poionts that condenser was half the points set?... Just wondering

Friiy

friiy wrote:
Yes it has a metal cover that's attached by two screws but spiders got in it and went to town.  There were cocoon type webs the size of cotton $#%*.  I used a Briggs ignition points and condenser set #294628.  The condenser was included in the package.