Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Does these two models share the same chassis and paddle set?  The Rtek engine is the same, however, the 3650 is rated at higher HP.  Is there a REAL difference in HP?  Apparently this same engine is used in the Toro Snow Commander rated at 7 HP.  What gives?  Why 3 different HP rating for same engine?

On a related topic, how does one go about raising the HP of these 2 stroke engines?  Remove the governor and add throttle control?  How do you do that?

Interesting question. I have a 2450 that is Briggs powered. It came with a Briggs manual and the serial# of the machine makes it a 2006. I took it home  still sealed in the factory box which contained not only the manuals(oneToro & one Briggs) but also dealer floor display placards in both French and English. Nowhere does it mention horse power-It just states the name R TEK on the Toro printed literature and the displacement as 141cc on both the Toro and Briggs printed material. 

It wouldn't be the first time manufacturers rated engines at different power levels.

Marc

I'm guessing they rate the power differently for marketing purposes. Check the parts numbers lists for each engine and see if you can find a different part no. If not, it's obviously the very same engine. I did that with the B&S 305cc engine. Same parts for the 9.5 h.p. engine as the 11 h.p. engine. It's a gimmick to squeeze more money out of people simply by applying a different power rating decal.

I've worked on a 2450 (4.5hp r*tek), a 221 (6hp r*tek) and a 726te (7hp r*tek).  They are all the exact same engine.  I'm going with a friend today to pick up a Snow Commander (7hp) and I'll update this thread with pics.  I'll bet anything it, too, is the exact same engine. 

I figure they're all good for at least 7hp in my experience using them.  You can see some of the marketing BS in the ratings.  The 2450 was rated at 1700lbs/min and the 3650 at 1800 lbs/min.  Then came the 221 (same engine and paddles) and it was rated back down to 1700 lbs/min so they could slot in the 421 at 1800lbs/min.  Make sense?  It makes no sense at all.  Its just marketing, plain and simple.  2450/3650/221 will all perform just about dead even, and in my experience, slightly better than the 421.

Think of the profit margin. Add one fifty cent decal to a product and ratchet the price up by $50.00 to $100.00 or more. Easy money for the manufacturers/retailers! Do all of the matching R-tek engines run at the same rpm?

I think that's the case.  Add a little crank handle for the chute on the 3650 and charge more money for it over the 2450.  It is expensive for what it is and it's simplicity.  However, I'd okay with that since it makes it quite convenient

I haven't tested them with a tach but they sound basically identical in RPMs. Worked on the Snow Commander last night and it is definitely the exact same engine.

How much is that Snow Commander?  I'm seeing $600 for a used one in good condition in my area.  Seems a bit high. 

Seems like an interesting piece to pick up.  Those paddle set must costs about $90 in parts to replace.  Other than that, everything else seems to be very solid on that machine.

This one, bought by a friend who consulted with me and took me with him to look at it, went for $350. Apart from being very dirty (used on a grass/dirt driveway) and stored outside (some rust and fading) is in great mechanical condition with no wear on the paddles. Motor runs great but the carb was filthy (dirt enters the carb through the primer bulb if you leave them outside covered in dirt and leaves). It is BIG for a single stage - bigger than I thought. Very well built, but to be honest, I think I'd lean toward one of the 21 inchers because they use the same motor with less width/capacity to throw and they are much more "flickable". The Snow Commander (though I haven't used it in snow yet) appears to be somewhere between the flickability of a smaller toro single stage (which can be moved about like a vacuum cleaner) and the plodding, specific movements of a larger 2-stage .

I agree with you.  I prefer a smaller width with the same power.  I am not in a hurry to clear snow quickly.  I prefer the snowblower to have lots of power to move snow without feeling strained.  The Snow Commander is interesting as it is the first and last of its kind in uniqueness of design.  It is quite a sight to see in person.  Toro did went out on a limb producing this snowblower.  I applaud them for being innovative and taking risk.  However, the Snow Commander is extremely heavy and not easy to turn as other typical single stage snowblowers.  It also costs more which is why it didn't stay in production very long because of low sales.

I did some further research on the 2450 and 3650.  They both have the same auger width, same pulley and belt part numbers, so the same gear reduction from engine crankshaft to paddle.  They both use the same exact engine, with the exception of the 3650 is set to run at a couple hundred more RPM.  It's very easy to increase the RPM to achieve even the 7 HP claim on the Snow Commander.  With that said, I haven't verified that these engines use the same jets so I don't know if allowing the engine to run at higher RPM would be detrimental, as in running leaner at higher RPM.  Maybe someone can offer their knowledge on this respect. 

I'm curious to know if anyone has modified their single stage 2 stroke to run at 7-8 HP while changed the pulley down to take advantage of the additional torque while not over spinning the paddles.  I'm not sure the Toro paddle design is strong enough for this kind of power, as the center plate/bracket seems lightweight as compared to Honda HS520 or the HS621.  The Toro rubber paddles are not supported in as many places as the Honda design.  So under heavy load and higher HP, the rubber mounting holes may be ripped out since there are only 6 holes versus 9 holes on the Honda. 

The jetting on all of the snowblower r*teks I have worked on is the exact same. 47.5 pilot jet (Lawn Boys have a 37.5 which often causes a surge so alot of lawn boy guys replace them with suzuki or r*tek pilot jets), same needle/seat assembly, and same main jet (I forget the number). I don't necessarily believe that they run at a higher RPM, and if they did, simply bending your governor tab would change that. They all sound exactly the same. Also, Toro switched to the "less bolts" paddle design in recent years, so I have to assume it is an improvement - the older models had bolts the full width. The rubber is thick and fiber-reinforced like a tire, so I wouldn't worry about that much at all. Plus, if something is going to break, the auger is alot cheaper than the gearbox or crankshaft.

Changing jetting will also require air intake and exhaust efficiency improvements to gain any potential the jetting may offer. I'm certain that there would be considerable differences in engine parts if there were any real differences in power. If the machine is up to the task, adjusting the governor spring tab would be an easy route to gaining more power. I know that most two stroke engines running at 3600 rpm can handle an rpm increase with virtually no additional stress. I've got a twenty year Echo lawn mower with at 140 cc engine. I had it spinning at 6500 rpm making somewhere around 12 h.p. The engine didn't seem to mind at all. I've since set it at 4000 rpm max. which is 1200 more than factory setting. It also has a controllable throttle so I can set the speed if I want to run it slower. It cuts heavy wet grass much better at the higher rpms. If anyone is planning on adjusting their governor, they should use a tach of some sort to give them a reading of what the engine is running at wide open throttle. Mini Tachs can be had for around $25.00 USD. They're very simple to install and use. Does anyone know what rpm these R-tek engines run at in stock form?

superbuick wrote:
The Toro manual states that it is the same Rtek engine with different engine RPM for different models.  The RPM is changed by bending the tab, as  you had mentioned.  3800 RPM for 2450, 4000 RPM for both 3650 and Snow Commander.  Interesting is that 3650 is rated for 6.5 hp, Snow Commander is for 7.0 hp while both run at same RPM.  Hmm...  I guess Toro believe that you should get more on paper when you pay more.

borat wrote:
12 hp walk behind lawn mower! That is quite a hoot.  Wonder what it does to mulching.

I think I'm interested in bumping up the RPM on a two stroke engine.  Where can I find those mini tachometer? 

Yeah, the problem with all of that additional power was the additional speed. It's self propelled. That was the main reason I sped up the engine was to gain more walking speed. It was just too slow running at 2800 rpm. Now, with it set at 3600 to 4000, it's a good clip without being too fast. Here's a link to one brand of tach. Shop around, I think I've seen them close to half that price. What's really annoying with these things is that you cannot change the battery in them. They're sealed. They're supposed to last five years or so, but that doesn't impress me. Not for $40.00. http://www.jackssmallengines.com/hour_meter.cfm

I'm not impressed with the price.  These mini tach should be around $10-$20, not $40 and $60 at some places.  There's not much to them, even with a sealed battery.

Snow Commanders use a different cylinder and piston than regular R*tek's. The Cylinder has two boost ports flanking the intake port, and the piston has matching windows for those boost ports, that's the main difference and allows a greater air/fuel charge into the combustion chamber = more horsepower.

Loblolly77 wrote:

Like he said
 

So it does, in theory.  Any real gain in HP?

Anyone check the part numbers from Toro/Briggs?  I have 2 "7hp" r*teks and 2 "6.5hp" r*teks in my garage at this very moment and I can tell no difference between them in starting/running/rpms/power.  they are all extremely powerful, easy to start, and run at almost identical RPMs.  The carbs all have the same jetting too (though one of the 6.5hp motors has a metal carb - all the rest are plastic carbs)

The 24” wide Toro Snow Commander has a longer 25MM x 4 inch crankshaft.
The same R-TEK block as found in the Toro CCR2450, CCR3650 & Lawnboy Insight Snowblowers. But the crankshaft on those measures only 2 1/4 inches in length.

 

I think they might really be different pistons.
I’m no parts expert but there seems to be a different parts reference for the piston.  

I compared the part numbers from the 2003 Toro Snow Commander (Model 38602) engine in my garage:

Engine family is 2L4X5-1415BA

Toro engine Model # 100 9536

Toro's web site references the R-Tek engines in the Snow Commander as:

084332-0130-E1 (on: 38600, 38601) piston assembly 801281

084333-0199-E1 (on: 38602, 38603) piston assembly 801281

Then I looked up some 3650 blowers from the same era:
084232-0121-E1 (on: 38517, 38537) piston assembly: 801279
084233-0198-E1 (on: 38518, 38538) piston assembly: 801279 
084232-0121-E1 (on: 38440, 38441) pston assembly: 801279
084233-0198-E1 (on: 38445) piston assembly: 801279