Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Simplicity now has gone and screwed up a perfectly reliable snowblower.Not only did they add electric chute rotator to the Large frame model; the chute deflector is also electrically controlled.Cant they just keep it simple?When your trying to clear a driveway in 30 degree temps,you dont need the doodads and the doohickeys not working.I guess B&S has a different plan than the original owner.I guess some of us just got our machines in time before they started farting them up.Hooray for the gizmos.........

This is not as bad as it seems. I haven't come across reported complaints of these electrically actuated chute to fail. Besides, if they do fail, how hard is it to replace them? It's not like changing a water pump or a timing belt on a car. More like changing a car battery. This is brushed motor from window or wiper motors, common commodity parts.

How long has Simplicity had these electric motors in snowblowers? Several years already? Now they are just introducing electric deflector. I say it's about time. Honda has electric chute and deflector that is controlled by a single joystick, plus onboard battery for starting the engine. What is Simplicity using? Rocker switches? I say as a premium snowblower manufacturer, they should get on the ball and offer "premium" features in addition to impressive handle bars, heavy metal, and paint job.

If car manufacturers haven't taken a chance introducing technology to the public, we'd all still be driving Ford Model T, hand crank start, leaf spring, manual steering, drum brakes, dim incandescent head lights. Think about giving up ABS brakes, stability control, A/C and heating, power windows and locks.

well aa to be quite honest thats why I bought a simp.....if it doesnt have it...it cant break down..When Im snowblowing at 4am before I go to work,I dont have time to be doing repairs on my blower.Sure technology is great but you know what I've never had problems with my ABS.You know why?Because my 2001 Accord doesnt have them.Do you know why my sunroof doesnt leak?Because I dont have one.If the technology makes my machine throw snow farther or handle more snow...give it to me but gadgets you can keep.Thats why I like the US Honda snowblowers...no gadgets to break down.

Let's hope that Simplicity continue to deliver to your expectation. I am impressed with the snow handling capacity of Simplicity and its quality feel. One of my neighbors have a Simplicity, and I really like how good it looks in the snow. Orange/red is the best color against white snow. Of course, it throws snow pretty well too.

My point is that I don't think they messed up by adding electric deflector. People at Simplicity must have done their homework to make sure it works reliability. Don't give up on people because they're taking a chance.

I have had several honda owners tell me the one thing they do not like about their machine is the electronic controlled chute/deflector.  Not only is it slower then the crank, but if the battery dies you have no control at all and on top of that the battery is not cheap.   If they had a way of disabling the electronic mechanism and being able to manually control it when in need. Then I think that would be a premium feature.

goofienewfie wrote:
I saw a video on youtube of a Honda 928 TCD and the chute and deflector speed is fast enough for me. It's not Toro QuickStick but precise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQKcPIsJc18

As far as the battery, it would be nice to have a mechanical backup, but if the frequency of failure is low, I rather put up with the chance that it may not work.

Mikiewest has pretty much nailed it and I agree entirely with him. I am far from a Luddite. I embrace incorporating technology in situations where it provides benefits with little or no consequence if it fails. A snow thrower is NOT a place for unnecessary gizmos. We have had this discussion numerous times. Gizmos appeal to the inner child within us all. I love gizmos in the right applications. However, I would never willingly buy a machine loaded with bells and whistle knowing that it will be working in harsh conditions and in situations where I must depend on it's reliability. Not going to happen. Simplicity's no longer the snow thrower manufacturer that we have all learned to appreciate and respect. I'm saddened to say that from appearances, Briggs and Stratton are taking the brand down the slippery slope to less quality for higher profits. Those of us who were fortunate and well informed enough to buy a pre-Briggs and Stratten Simplicity are in possession of an extremely competent and robust machine that will last a very long time. As with Ariens and Toro, new Simplicity snow throwers will not be 20+ year machines. A sad day indeed for North American manufacturing.... AGAIN! Despite the disappointing trend of domestic snow thrower manufacturers choosing to build cheap, short lived machines, I'm confident that Honda and Yamaha will choose to not follow them. The Japanese have an obsession with quality. Sure we pay handsomely for it but at least it's there if we have the resources to buy it. When Briggs and Stratten deal the final blow to Simplicity by eliminating their Pro line up, we will have no choice but to fork out the big bucks for a Honda or Yamaha if we truly want a top notch machine. Big business and devious financial institutions are destroying the manufacturing core in our countries. Soon the Chinese will be building everything we buy. (We're almost there now.) Without the belief in domestic production of quality products at reasonable prices, the future will not be bright for manufacturing in North America.....

I'm with aa335.
I have faith in Simplicity and my dealer delivering me a quality product. I had a good look over of my 1428E before I put my good money on it. From what I saw of last years model, the '09 that I bought looks and feels just as robust. I look forward to utilizing the electric chute rotation and believe that it will come in handy when I need both hands on the handle grips (the 1428 does not have the electric chute deflector). I did ask the dealer about the reliability of the chute rotation and he said that Simplicity has had this on the Pro models for a couple of years (which I already knew). He stressed to me that they will provide me service for what ever goes wrong. I realize that maybe, just maybe, it may go on me at an inoppourtune time but, I am pretty handy with the tools and electrics. If it fails once the warranty expires I know that I can fix it myself quite easily. 
I will note that I was disappointed when I saw the 1226 with the aluminum auger case but, to compete price wise against the other domestics, I guess they had to give somewhere.

Yo Krank:

I'm just assuming that your '09 Simplicity 1428 is still the robust product that is representative of the pre-Briggs and Stratton production line. It's probable that Simplicity has not entirely re-tooled for the production of the new models. As you pointed out, they are now selling machines that are not manufactured to the build quality of old. I'll dare to say that is just the beginning. within the next couple of years, I'll be surprised to see any non-pro Simplicity snow throwers being built as ruggedly as the machines we own. I'll also venture to say that the Pro line up will likely be eliminated as well. I certainly hope not but, hey, this is progress right? As if there's some way the manufacturers can make us believe that production of low quality products is in deed progress. I'm not buying it. Personally, I think it's just the opposite.

Simplicity was acquired by Briggs back in 2004. While it takes a long time to turnover a product pipeline, many of us have "post-B&S" machines and have been quite pleased. According to my local dealer, the electric chute control has been part of Simplicity's feature arsenal since well-before the 2004 acquisition. (And given the state of American mfg, it is not unreasonable to question whether Simplicity would even be around at all, much less what state they might be in, without a deep-pocketed corporate parent.)

...I'm not arguing, just some thoughts...

Much of what many of us consider necessary today, seemed superfluous a few years ago. When I was a kid, my Dad had to manually wrap a rope around our Toro mower to get it started. And of course, that meant he had to re-wrap this rope every time he pulled on it! The notion of a built-in rope with an auto-return feature seemed like a gimmick to him. (I distinctly remember the conversation.) Nowadays electric starters are frequently seen on lawn mowers!!

Just because something is electric, does not, by default, make it more prone to error or even an 'additional' thing to break. It really isn't an 'extra' something, just a 'different' something. I would even guess that someone could reasonably make an argument (though I certainly won't try) that a switch, wire, motor, and gear setup has fewer points of failure and adjustment than levers, cables, rods, and linkage systems. (To make such an argument, I think you need to consider the motor and a single component.) Put more simply, I've owned four cars in my life. I had a problem with a window control on just one of them and it was the only car that did NOT have electric windows!! And it cost $200 to fix!

The one problem I've had on my Simplicity snowthrower was with the linkage in the free-hand control. Borat helped me fix it and I remain grateful to this forum. There are no electrics involved in this mechanism and the mechanism is actually pretty simple.

Generally, I'm impartial to these electric controls on snowblowers. I think they're slick and fun, but I had a fine experience with a mid-90s Ariens that had none of these items. Still, IF there is savings to be had by eliminating the engineering and mfg of levers, cables, and linkage systems AND these savings allow Simp to maintain quality and beefiness in the rest of the machine while staying competitive with Home Depot/Ariens, I'm all for 'em.

Time will tell how successful the new gizmos will be. I, however will not be effected one way or the other. My machine is all mechanical and personally, if it's mechanical, in most situations, I can make an immediate fix with whatever I have laying around. Might take a bit of cutting, filing, drilling and fitting, but the machine will be back in service quickly. I know I cannot rebuild micro switches and small electric motors with what I have laying around. Therein lies the dilemma for me. Not to be demeaning nor disdainful to participants of this forum, I would say that there are very few people who repair their machines beyond basic adjustments and maintenance. Rather than roll up their sleeves, they roll up the machine onto a pick-up and bring it to the dealer. It will be a frosty day in hell before I do that. As such, the simpler the machine is, the better.

That reminds me of two recent incidents that two of my neighbours had. On March 31st, we had an enormous dump of heavy wet snow. I noticed my next door neighbour only had half of his 110' driveway cleared. I offered to finish it but he said he had a front end loader on the way to finish the job. I asked him what had happened to his snow thrower (Yardman, 10 hp. Tech) he said he had blown the motor and the local Toro dealer picked it up to fix it. When he got the machine back a month later, the engine hadn't been blown at all. He had simply over-filled it with oil and being worked so hard, it was puking oil out of the crank case vent. Only cost him $200.00 to have some oil drained off (and of course, the usual dealer line of we did this tune up and we did that adjustment. I bet! The other case was early in the spring, a lady across the street couldn't get her lawn mower running. I told her to have her husband bring it over and I'd look at it for them. He decided that the machine probably needed a "tune up" and brought it to a dealership. Tend days and four hundred bucks later they got it back. The woman was surprised with the cost of repair as was I. I asked what cost so much. She said that it needed a new carburetor. This was a virtually new machine that had seen one season of cutting grass then was stored for about eight years. I'd bet the farm that all the carb needed was to be cleaned out. Seems that the dealer preferred to clean out their bank account instead.

The above examples just go to show how ignorant the general public is when it comes to things mechanical. Every day, I thank the board of education for having tech classes when I was going to school! I'm certain that I've save literally thousands of dollars in repairs over the years.

Borat, you are absolutely right on the general public's ability/willingness to repair their own machines. The minor stuff I've done was only with the help of this forum. Ironically, I predict it would be easier for me to swap out a switch or motor than fabricate something. Again, 'simple' is relative.

Wanna have some real fun?

Get a price on the motor for the chute!
My Simplicity has not covered itself in glory. 
The ariens it replaced had a better track record.

The simplicity warranty runs out in a couple months, and has already had to go to the shop TWICE.

That's what I'm talking about Tubby.Unnecessary repair bills.And the type of people who love gizmos,usually not always dont know how to repair them.So here goes $60 for the p/u and return of the machine,$$ for parts and labor.Look at the chute rotator on the Honda or my simp pro .Easy to adjust and will never break down when u need it most.Even Ariens stopped offering the electric chute rotator.

mfduffy wrote:
I agree that it would be easier to swap out the switch, provided you can get to one. A switch sitting on a shelf at the dealership won't do you any good if you can't get to it because there's two feet of snow in your driveway because your snow thrower won't work because a switch that controls where the snow goes failed. Working outside in winter conditions is not the best place for exposed electronics. I wish every success to those who have them on their machines. I'll stay with the tried and true. As I say, if I can see what's broken, more often than not, I can fix it.

Tubby wrote:
Sorry to hear that your Simplicity needed repairs twice already with an approaching end of warranty. Are both of these repairs pertaining to the chute, and/or motor?

mikiewest wrote:
I wouldn't necessarily make that sort of generalization. I personally know of a medical doctor who loves gizmo, build his own computer, repair motorcycles and cars. He also has absolutely no interest in snowblowers. He doesn't drive an expensive BMW or Mercedes, except a very old BMW 2002 and Ford Probe GT. He also has excellent bed side manners and down to earth humble personality.

There are people who love gizmo that can repair them, some can't repair them, some just don't have the time to repair them, and some make too much money in one hour to repair them. All types of people love or hate gizmo.

New ideas are labeled as gizmo, given time, they become common place necessity. You are looking at it everyday.

I love some gizmos and I know that I am going to find that the chute rotation gizmo will come in very handy.  I was surprised that it was on the 1428 when I first looked at this years model and at the moment I was a little skeptical. But, it looks to be put together pretty solid like the rest of the machine. I say don't knock it until you (and others) try it. If it gives me grief my dealer, Simplicity and you guys will hear about it; during and after the warranty period.

In the mean time I am going to give it the benefit of the doubt.

I can see that there are a number of people who love to have this gizmo. Some has gone so far as to fabricate their own chute rotation and deflector using cordless drills. Will it fail when it's 30 degrees outside? Probably. When you leave your house, is there a chance that you may be "prematurely expired" in a car crash or a shooting? Probably.

Take a chance. Failures are not that bad. They are often a huge motivator to getting it right. Where's the American pioneering spirit? Have we lost all frontier to discover?

AA I'm shocked that u love gizmos soo much.Honda machines at least the ones sold in NY are gizmo-less....Thats what made them appealing to me.The money u spend on a Honda are for a great engine,hydro tranny etc etc.Not for hand warmers,electric this electric that,left and right power steering.The mechanics I spoke to say that u dont need a left and right trigger control.Its just a sales ploy.thats why I went with the simp pro.One trigger control.Look at the Honda single stage.Clean simple and powerful.Whats that little blue thing on the Toro?Looks like a little mouse that goes up and down on the handle..LOL.Give me 4 cycle or give me death but dont give me that R-Tek engine...And those Toro machines r not cheap but hey if u like all of those doo dads knock urself out.But I'd rather know that $600 spent on a honda is on what really counts... which is to gather snow and expel it well and on quality.As opposed to spending $600 on a Toro single stage.That price is for doo dads and a much cheaper engine.

Gizmos or features are intended as a convenience or to assist the operation. A snowblower is a collection of gizmos. The auger is a gizmo designed as an open helicoil with slow rotation speed to gather snow, not compact it. The impeller is a gizmo with paddles which rotates at a higher rotation speed to expel snow at a great distance. Multiple speed drive is a gizmo that allows us to efficiently match the forward speed to the volume/density of snow. Handle interlock is a gizmo that allows us change chute/deflector direction while the snowblower remains in motion. Lights allows us to see where we going at night, as well as avoid ingesting objects in the snowblower. You get the picture. You can say that the more of these gizmos are present, the greater the probability of failure. Shall we all revert to the ole reliable "metal" shovel to reduce the probability of failure down to two components? The shovel and the shoveler.

mikiewest wrote:
I actually like the left right trigger control. Although a single trigger would suffice, but you are limited to turning one way.

Again, I also like the blue quick chute on the Toro single stage. It's a little pricey for a few plastic parts and a cable assembly. However, I tried it and find it convenient and effective.

I don't have any knowledge of the R-tek 2 cycle engine. Small 2 cycle engines are fairly simple so I don't know how one can screw up making a bad one. Maybe cheap carburetor and fixed unforgiving jets to appease the EPA and CARB. I can't really say if the R-tek engine is cheap. Maybe cheaper than 4 stroke engine. Chassis built quality of the Toro seems equal to the Honda HS520, lesser than the HS621. However, I'd chose a 4 cycle engine over 2 cycle just because I like the lower noise, lower vibration, and better fuel efficiency.

I alluded to the built quality of the HS520 being less than the HS621. However, having used both, the newer HS520 throws snow better than the older HS621, and also handles better too. Lower noise, lower vibrations. The HS520 is better designed to efficiently put the power down to the auger, lighter pulley, more efficient flat belt, and better designed auger. So I can say the cliche "They don't make them like they used to". However, they made them to perform better.

mikiewest wrote:
Not exactly.

The "little mouse" just controls the chute via cable - its about the simplest thing you can imagine - less complex than gears and a knob. I've got both styles (traditional and zip chute) and the zip chute is better, hands down. Gimmicky seeming? Maybe, but when you look at the design and the simplicity, as well as the ability to fix it should it break (though there isn't anything to really break other than a cable - which is pretty unlikely), its far from a cheap gizmo.

And the R*Tek being inferior vs the little honda engine? Uh, not by a longshot. I'll keep the R*Tek for single stage use. More power, simpler, less maintenance, and less weight. Not a knock on Honda (God forbid ;) ), I love their stuff (GX engines, etc.) but some of what you posted about the R*Tek isn't spot on. I have 4 R*Teks (2 duraforces but on mowers and 2 R*Teks on snowblowers) and they're easily the most powerful OPE engines I have within that displacement range (under 250cc).

Otherwise I completely agree with you regarding gizmos - snowblowers (or anything that just needs to work, period) really aren't the place for them. I don't even really care for electric start. Today's engines are extremely easy to start, and the effort involved in getting out the cord and plugging it in is more hassle than pulling the starter handle (though the battery electric start I think is cool - no cord to plug in). The simplicity (pun intended) of the bigger Honda and Ariens 2 stages is exactly why I feel they're worth the cost. You're paying for well made, relatively basic, robust machinery that will work when you need it, every time.

My neighbor has the Toro 221 with quick chute and the R-tek engine. After seeing him use it on heavy snow on several occasions, I have to say it's a pretty gutsy snowblower. It could always use more horsepower for the end of drive pile, arg arg. However, I think it is just as good as the Honda 4 stroke of similiar age. The Toro did make quite a ruckuss of noise though.

My neighbor WORKS for Honda, so naturally all his stuff is Honda. He's got the HS520 and a 928TA. When we first moved in, he allowed me to use his snowblowers because I didnt yet have one and he was usually out plowing when it snowed, so I could do his driveway for him while he was out in return for him allowing me the use of the snowblowers.

Without question the Toro 221 is more powerful and does a better job of removing the snow than the HS520. I've used them back-to-back, both running at the same time, on the same snow. Its not my opinion - the Toro worked better. Its also a lighter weight machine. The toro isn't so much louder as it is higher pitched (2 stroke vs 4 stroke). The honda has a deeper, bassy sound to it.

The 928TA is a fantastic unit, if a bit hard to maneuver. It definitely digs in very well in big, wet, EOD stuff. However, I don't think its 2x as good as a comparably sized Ariens or Toro (it IS 2x the price!)

Thanks superbuick for your unbiased observation of the Toro versus the Honda

You effectively convinced me to buy the Toro 221 and then shoe-horn the Honda GX200 or GX240 engine into the Toro chassis.

I shall call it the Hondoro Super Snow Commander. *wink*

By the way, any reason why you have so many snowblowers at your disposal, and two Lawnboy mowers? Looks like they were stored in a time capsule. I'm jealous. You wouldn't have a Snow Commander in your arsenal, do you?

aa335 wrote:
:-)

In keeping with this thread, I got into OPE and snowblowers as a result of getting ripped off by the local small engine service place.  I grew up using snowblowers and lawnmowers as a kid but when I got my own home, I was able to use my aformentioned neighbor's equipment, and as a result didnt need to buy my own.  My Grandparents had an old single stage Toro CR20e and when my grandfather passed away it stopped getting regular maintenance.  After a few years it stopped running altogether.  I took it to the dealer/service shop to get repaired for her and 2 months and $150 later was told "we rebuilt the carb twice and it won't run, it needs a new carburetor and parts are no longer available for it.  You need to buy a new snowblower".  My father purchased a CCR2450 for my grandmother and I took the old CR20e as I got a bad feeling from the dealership/service guy (I didnt trust him) and made it my mission to fix it.  I race cars and karts so I'm fairly well mechanically inclined.  A little poking around on the internet and I found out it was a Tecumseh AH600 and I ordered a used carburetor and a rebuild kit from ebay.  Took the unit apart, read through the service manual, and realized that the unit didnt need a new carb at all - the guy never put the o-ring in where the needle seat rests - as a result it leaked fuel - something he said was the result of a cracked carburetor.  Put the o-ring in and it fired right up.  I was happy it was running and furious that the guy took my innocent grandmother for a ride.  The repaired old unit worked awesome - almost as well as the Honda I was used to.  The only thing it didn't have in abundance was power.  I mean, it had a decent enough amount, but it wasn't a stump puller.  I liked it so much that I bought a 221QR.  It was like the Honda, only better!  More power and throws the snow more efficiently (the augers on the Toro seem to be a superior shape/design)  I liked the 221QR  motor so much that I found a "non running" lawn boy on craigslist, cleaned it up and tuned/clean the carb, and got it running.  Liked that so much that I found another one on craigslist and did the same.  The 2 strokes are so ridiculously powerful and easy to work on, I've been able to expand my collection pretty quickly.  It's become a hobby for me; I'll pick up used units, clean them up, and sell them cheaply to friends or neighbors (my neighbor replaced his broken Toro with a Lawn Boy that I repaired and sold to him for a very good deal)  Lawn Boys are nostalgic to me as I love the smell and sound of them, and I remember my dad's first mower when I was a kid was a Lawn Boy.  Their light weight and awesome performance doesn't hurt either :-)

oh and that pivoting scraper on the toro 1128oxe ....was it necessary.I have heard from people where it gets stuck and now you have no scraper.Another doo dad that wasnt necessary.But hey some people love useless gizmos LOL.

Superbuick,

I thought the bug for vintage 2 stroke Lawnboys had subsided since February. Now it's back to full force. I'm starting to look into brick top Lawnboys. It's all your fault for posting pictures of those two clean looking Lawnboy mowers. Real bad@!! Although no where as expensive as collecting old German cameras and French fountain pens. :)

Have those Lawnboys seen a blade of grass? Looks like they just came from a showroom.

I should pick a new hobby, like composting grass clippings.

aa335 wrote:
I hear you on expensive hobbies. Since I've started racing the word "expensive" has taken on a whole new meaning.

I use both of my 2 stroke lawn boys regularly - I just wash and wax them when I'm done ;) They work flawlessly - if you could still buy them I probably wouldn't be so fussy about keeping them nice, but as they're a dying breed and I get so much enjoyment from mowing with them, I don't mind putting in the extra effort. I have a Snapper Hi-Vac that I use for bagging - incredibly awesome, heavy duty mower.

I'd love to have a bricktop as well - very simple and light mowers with alot of character. Hard finding a decent one though that doesn't require a total restoration.

I use a Husqvarna riding mower to do most of my yard but use a twenty year old Echo self propelled mower to do the trimming. For many years, I used the Echo to do the entire lawn which is of considerable size (.5 acre+). Due to the slope of the front lawn and the ridiculous price of mowers with pressurized oil systems (at the time), I opted for a two stroke engine. The Echo has a 140 cc engine and with factory settings, makes 4.5 h.p. at 2800 rpm. Power is fine at that setting but the self propulsion was a bit too slow for me. I adjusted the governor to give me more engine rpm to help pick up the speed. Now I have a throttle range of 1600 to 4500 rpm which gives the mower much more speed and power. Once the engine is warmed up, there's very little, if any, smoke from the exhaust.

Two strokes are indeed a wonderful engine design. Simplicity, flexible power, light weight and reliability.... What more could one really ask for? How about resuming modern two stroke manufacturing and technology development for OPE applications? After all, Bombardier's Evinrude/Johnson outboards and Skidoo snow machines use very advanced fuel injected two cycle engines that easily out-perform equivalent four stroke engines of equal displacement.