Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I have been working to get an leaf loader ready for fall clean up. The 11hp briggs and stratton engine starts briefly when choked and then dies. Gas runs out and drips below. It runs all of 3 seconds before it dies. I've tried starting it without the choke but no luck there. When I bought it a week ago the previous owner started it on the first pull. It has a good spark, fresh gas, a clean air filter. With the spark plug pulled I can see the spark. I've tried starting it at half throttle, full throttle and low throttle. No difference there. I took the bowl off the carburetor and cleaned out the crud that was in there. Do I need to take the carb off and completely clean it? What setting should the throttle be at for start up? Any suggestions? the motor is a Briggs Industrial Plus model 256422 type 1015 -E1

A float bowl full of debris is a pretty clear indicator that the carb should be completely dis-assembled and cleaned. I suggest you find out what model of carb you are working on, do a search and download a file showing an exploded view of the carburetor. Remove and clean all the jets and also clean all passages and galleries in the carb. Use a solvent, toothbrush, and compressed air to clean what you can see. Occasionally, the very small passages will be difficult to clear if they're clogged. I use a very thin copper wire to clear them then soak in solvent and blow more air through the passages. Be careful not to mess up the float setting. It can cause a world of problems if not properly set. Before you re-assemble, get the correct settings for the float and ensure the float is properly set. Go through the entire fuel system to ensure the tank is clean and fuel lines in good condition and free flowing. Chances are that your problem is fuel related.

I did find a diagram of the carb here:&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR>

And I found the spark plug here:<BR><BR>
http://www.sparkplugs.com/results_cross.asp?pid=RJ19LM&amp;crossManID=20&amp;mfid=

Spark plugs that are equivalent to Champion - RJ19LM:
Autolite Traditional spark plug 458 458
Bosch Bosch Super Start Spark Plug 7801 WR11E0
Bosch Bosch Small Engine Plug 7538 WR11E0
Denso Traditional spark plug 6071 W9LMR-US
NGK Traditional spark plug 5798 BR2LM
Splitfire Obsolete SF45F SF45F

With the assistance of the diagram, you should have no problem giving it a thorough cleaning. I've worked on similar carbs and found that the thing gasket for the fuel bowl can be a pain to get on just right. Be very careful to ensure that it's properly lined up before you tighten the float bowl down. If not, it WILL leak. If the float looks level with the carb held upside down, it should be set correctly. If it's canted in any way, that may indicate a problem with adjustment. Check the float needle seat closely for any irregularity. It should be smooth and uniform. Another important thing to look for is the condition of the point of the float needle. It should also be sufficiently smooth and uniform to seat the float needle seat when in the closed position. If it's solid metal, look closely (magnifying glass) to ensure it has no irregularities. If it has a neoprene tip, ensure it's also uniform. Even the slightest irregularity can compromise fuel control. Let us know how you make out.

As I started taking things apart I notice that the fuel was leaking out of a small black box (mystery box) located just to the right of the carburetor. This box appears to be made of plastic. Any idea what it is? Gas lines go into and out of it.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii171/jmccollough/014-2.jpg

Here's another image of the black box:

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii171/jmccollough/004.jpg

It looks like this is a fuel pump. Did not know that these pumps ever had issues. Part number 692026

I did remove the fuel pump from the engine. I inspected it carefully. I leaks, mostly at the seams where the gaskets should be sealing the pump casing. The diaphrams (there are two inside) look fine with no rips or tears or signs of distress.
I remain baffelled however. I'm not sure that the leaking fuel pump was my source of trouble with respect to the engine's problems. With the pump still attached and the carb bowl removed I could pull the starter cord watch the gas pour from the needle valve hole just about the float. Gas has definitely been making it into the bowl.

Would I be safe in ruling out the fuel pump as the source of my problems? The symptom being a engine that would start when choked and then quickly die. Either you're getting gas into the bowl or not. I don't see how the leaky fuel pump would play a role.

I did remove the fuel pump from the engine. I inspected it carefully. I leaks, mostly at the seams where the gaskets should be sealing the pump casing. The diaphrams (there are two inside) look fine with no rips or tears or signs of distress.
I remain baffelled however. I'm not sure that the leaking fuel pump was my source of trouble with respect to the engine's problems. With the pump still attached and the carb bowl removed I could pull the starter cord watch the gas pour from the needle valve hole just about the float. Gas has definitely been making it into the bowl.

Would I be safe in ruling out the fuel pump as the source of my problems? The symptom being a engine that would start when choked and then quickly die. Either you're getting gas into the bowl or not. I don't see how the leaky fuel pump would play a role.

I did remove the fuel pump from the engine. I inspected it carefully. I leaks, mostly at the seams where the gaskets should be sealing the pump casing. The diaphrams (there are two inside) look fine with no rips or tears or signs of distress.
I remain baffelled however. I'm not sure that the leaking fuel pump was my source of trouble with respect to the engine's problems. With the pump still attached and the carb bowl removed I could pull the starter cord watch the gas pour from the needle valve hole just about the float. Gas has definitely been making it into the bowl.

Would I be safe in ruling out the fuel pump as the source of my problems? The symptom being a engine that would start when choked and then quickly die. Either you're getting gas into the bowl or not. I don't see how the leaky fuel pump would play a role.

is the plug wet or dry when it doesnt start (pull out and inspect)? well if fuels going to the carb then either your carb gots dirt in it blocking fuel entering the engine or a possiable intake leak/head gaskets leak which doesnt sounds likely due to the engine runnig fine when u bought it. if the engine doest have compression it wont be able to suck fuel into the engine. make sure the intake and carb are tight. l would lean towards carb being dirty l would clean again and make sure the idle circut and main jet are clear.

Cleaning the carb makes sense. Can you provide any advice in doing this. I have never worked on a briggs carb before.

I do have compressed air and carb cleaner.  I cannot seem to figure out how to remove the carb.  I thought I might try to clean it while it is still attached to the engine.

Is fuel comming up the main nozzel in the carb behind the choke butterfly when it floods? If so the needle/seat/float is causing the problem...

or...
The fuel pump may be leaking internally to the "vacuum side of the Diaphram", meaning that the fuel is making it to the carb also through the vacuum port on the intake manifold..(I think that is where the pump hooks up on this motor, correct me if I am wrong...)

Try starting the motor with a pair of vice grips on the Vacuum line from the pump after the bowl is already filled with gas. If it still leaks this will rule out pump vaccum side failure...

Try taking the pump completely out of the loop, hook up a fuel tank and gravity fill the bowl of the carb with it... If you have a float/ needle/seat problem, the carb will leak by gravity feed also..


Good luck,

Friiy


Ps.... How did the tiller work this spring?

<BR> friiy wrote: <BR>With the air filter off, I do see fuel in the carb behind the choke butterfly. But I cannot confirm that the fuel is getting there through the nozzle as you suggest. I went ahead and replaced the fuel pump yesterday with a new one and it no longer drips. Without the fuel pump the carb does not get gas (the tank is slower than the carb). When you pull the starter and let the bowl drop down the fuel flows right through (I catch it with a cup). If you raise the bowl up with your finger, the fuel flow stops (even if you continue to pull the starter cord). I spent the day yesterday cleaning things I got the main nozzle out (carefully) and cleaned it really well. I installed a new fuel line, the new fuel pump, a new fuel filter and flushed the gas line. I slid small wires through the little holes and used a can of carb cleaner with a straw tube to blast the cleaner through all the holes that I could see. The I ran my compressor up to 100 psi and blew everything out. I also put in a new spark plug and changed the oil. <BR>I pulled the starter cord (choked on) and the engine fired right up and the died quickly. If I let it sit for 20 minutes and leave the choke off, it will fire right up again and then die. I'm baffled. I'm stumped. <BR>It really was running fine when the previous owner started it just over a week ago. That's why I purchased it. It ran so smooth. <BR>There is a small white wire dangling unconnected below the carb. Maybe something came disconnected. <BR> I thing I'm missing something really basic. Something foolish. The leaking fuel pump was just a distraction. <BR>Is there a factory setting for the idle mixture screw. I got that off by removing the safety shroud around the muffler but I'm not 100% sure I got it back where it was set before. <BR><BR><BR>The tiller is fantastic. I had used a front tine Merry tiller before but there's no comparison. My neighbors have all borrowed it as well. I'd like to add a sickle bar to the BCS someday. <BR><BR><BR>

Sounds like you still have something in the fuel system plugging the high speed circut... Does the carb tower (post that runs through the float that the bolt screws the bowl on) have a jet on it, or is the jet drilled into the bowl bolt? Check these for grit that may have settled there.. Post pictures of the carb with the bowl off, if you would.

Don't worry about the idle mixture screw at this time, set it at about 1 and 1/4 out from soft stop.. That low speed circut is not running unless the throttle shat is almost fully closed. Adjust that after the unit is running, warmed up and at idle.

So, is the carb not leaking any more? Are you sure the bowl is full of gas?

Post some pictures of the carb with the bowl off if you can..

Good luck,

Friiy

I'll work on getting some pictures of the carb. I know that there are some hole that I could not reach without removing the float (I did not remove the float because I did not remove the carburetor from the engine, I've never taken one off a Briggs and I was worried I'd ruin something. On the outside (air intake side) of the choke plate I found some small hole to clean. But I have a feeling that there may be more of these holes further in near the other (throttle?) plate. I could not reach those. This afternoon I pulled it and it ran (rough) for almost 10 seconds. &
Question: When I slide a small metal wire down the hole on the left side of the carb it goes all the way in. When I try to do the same on the hole on the other side it only will go in 2 inches. (Cycled in green) I'm not sure if this is normal. <BR><BR><BR>&gt;<BR><BR>This is the location (yellow square) that I could not reach without removing the float. &lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&gt;&lt;&lt;

The holes on the carb are the emulisfier vent and the carb bowl vent.. I could not tell you which is which unless I had more pictures. The holes go in so far and then are drilled 90 degrees through the access behind the welch plugs (silver discs pressed into carb body).

The carb bowl vent keeps the carb bowl and fuel at static pressure (outside air pressure)the low pressure of the air in the venturi draws fuel through the main and low speed jets...

The emulsifier jet is a port that injects air into the main jet fuel stream (through all the little holes in the nozzel) so the fuel "sprays" instead of bubbling up and pooling in the bottom of the venturi..

Don't worry about the wire not going through. Just spray in the hole and make sure it comes out the vent above the float and the emulsifier jet comes out where the nozzel screws in...


Good Luck,

Friiy

friiy wrote:

When I look into the carb while pulling the starter I don't see gas being sprayed.  Instead I see it bubbling up and pooling around the top of the brass nozzle. Right behind the choke butterfly  where the brass nozzle pokes up and enters the carb.  Where is the venturi?

  

The spray shouldn't happen till the engine is running. On Choke-starting with a pullstart, a large vacuum is created to draw "rich amounts" of fuel into the venturi..

The venturi is the narrowing throat of the carb in the middle...(as air velocity increases at the venturi, pressure decreases, thus drawing fuel through the jets to the low pressure area)

I don't understand, is the carb still flooding when it starts to run, or is it acting like it is running out of fuel? Was fuel bubbleing out of the carb as it stopped?


Friiy

friiy wrote:
I oppologize for my poor description. I'm starting to understand how a carburetor works (thank you). With the choke I can see a small wet area forming in the "ventury" area where the brass nozzle sticks up. Then engine starts and then stalls. Previously, when the bad fuel pump was dripping gas down the side of the engine I thought the gas was coming from the throat of the carb (flooded) but the plug was always dry. I ran some more carb cleaner through the little holes and then blew them all out again with the compressor. The engine roared to life and did not die. It ran and ran and ran until I tried to bring the engine back down to an idle. Then it cut out. I'm going to look for the factory settings for the idle screw. PROGRESS!

Well, back to square one. When choked the engine springs to life and as you open the choke it rev faster and faster until it dies about 5-6 seconds later. Pulling the choke back closed again does not keep it running. Nor does changing the throttle. I'm back to the drawing board. I am learning though.

I you can start the engine and only run it on choke, and the carb is still full of fuel when you take the bowl off (provided you have not pumped more into from try to pull start it again). Then the problem is mostly still in you high speed circut. I think you should check the nozzel again, after you clean the nozzle, clean the little hole that goes into the carb tower that allows fuel to enter the nozzle, this little hole(main jet) should intersect with the smooth area of the nozzle...

The hole you need to clean is just above the yellow box on the cutaway carb photo just below the float(aug 30, post picture).. this would be the "main jet" that all fuel travels in the carb..( this jet may be a press in, unremovable or screw-in)

http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/images/kohler_walbro_lmk/_main_jet.JPG


This photo shows the "main-jet"


Friiy

friiy wrote:
I think I was gettting my "nozzles" and  " jets" mixed up.  I will take another look at the main jet.  My recollection was that there was just a hole there in the aluminum casting, with no jet in there.  But I might have missed something.  I am going to get a tool at lunch today to remove the carb.  Cleaning down low on the ground where it sits is next to impossible while still attached to the engine. 

I think you will be fine if you just take the float off and clean it from there. The nozzel is considered by most the main jet... Really it is the "highway" for the main jet. All fuel is drawn through the calibrated hole that is on the carb tower that intersects with the nozzle. At low speed(low airflow thought the carb) the draw is too small to pull full through the nozzle, At this speed of airflow the throttle shaft is nearly closed, Air has to speed up by the edge of the nearly closed throttle butterfly, thus causing fuel to be sucked/drawn from the little holes nesx to the butterfly on the inside of the carb(low speed) orifice..

Jet and orifices are usually used interchangebly. I think the best description is "low speed circut" and "high speed circut"...


Friiy

Any Progress Underdog???

<BR> niper99 wrote: I found the tool at Harbor Freight and got the carburetor off and gave it a really thorough cleaning. A few of the holes on the carb seemed to be sealed with a small bearing. But I cleaned them as best I could. I hooked it all back up and it started on the first pull. It ran really well and would throttle up and did not smoke. The after a about 1.5 minutes is died. Dead as a doornail. As if it was starved for gas. <BR><BR>I did take some photos of the carburetor while I had it off. Here they are:<BR><BR>>< <BR><BR>>< <BR><BR> >< <BR><BR><BR>

sounds like your float needle isn't opening or there's a fuel line blockage. If you have fuel at the carb, then it's likely the float needle sticking or an improperly adjusted float. Floats can be tricky business. Get the specs for yours and set accordingly. Good luck.

I'll take another look at the float and float needle. I took a Q-tip and removed most to the fluffy end and tried to polish the seat for the needle. I did not inspect or touch the needle itself. <BR>When I go to remove the bowl there is always plenty of fuel in there. And with the bowl off, its easy to lift the float with my hand, forcing the needle up into its seat where it does shut off the flow of fuel. Maybe my hand pressure (to seat the needle) is different than the force that the float exerts on its own. Are you suggesting that the needle is not closing when the float raises up and thus fuel is continuing to fill the bowl and the carb? OR that the needle might be sticking in the seat and not allowing more gas to fall into the bowl as it gets low (starving the carb of gas)? <BR>My ongoing symptom is: &quot;let is sit 5 minutes, pull the starter with the choke on, the engine starts right up and then dies&quot; <BR><BR> <BR>
This is the first time I have ever worked on a Briggs engine. I hope I'm not missing something simple/basic.

Is your gas cap vapor locking? Does it allow air into the tank as fuel is drawn out? Looking at this carb it has had water in it at one time.. what does the carb bowl bolt look like? I think it has a metered hole in it, Check if you would....

Friiy

I have been wondering about the flow of gas to from the gas tank. I installed a new gas line filter (same as the old one that worked just fine previously) and when I examine the fuel line filter I notice that it is not full of gas. Only a little trickle along the bottom of the clear filter. (the filter is installed with the arrow pointing in the desired direction of flow) Should the filter be filled with gas? It is below the tank when the gas is full. Maybe the little shut off valve below the tank is not working 100%. But still, there is always plenty of fuel in the bowl when I pull it off. Something is odd about all this. I will check that bolt below the bowl. I do not think it has any holes in it.

is there any crud or dirt in the bowl when u take off after it runs and stops? make u replace the fuel line going from the filter to the carb, lve seen it where the fuel line deteriorates and little pieces of rubber start going in the carb and that may be clogging the main jet?

when it stops running l would pull the plug again and check if its wet or dry and check spark at the same time. it could be a sticky valve/loose valve seat causing no compression but its unlikey, just throwing some ideas out there.

The fuel filter not being full of fuel is not a problem, It just has a bubble that will not purge out..


I don't think it is a valve seat problem, when the seat gets loose it doesn't always lay flat in its hole for a restart... I think the valves are---ok.

Try loosening the gas gap when it starts to die, see if it starts to pick up again...

Also---- What type of sound does it give when it starts to die? Does the engine surge? Does it back fire? or does it just stop? Are you useing it under load when it dies? or is it running full speed with no load? or is it Ideling (low speed/ no load) when it dies?

Can you take a video of it as it gets ready to die and poist it on your photo page?


Just throwing some ideas out there...

Good Luck,

Friiy

I appreciate the suggestions on what to check.
I took the carb apart again. I found the "welch plug" that I have heard about on these briggs engines. I probed and poked with the wire from a twist tie in all the holes again. I sprayed carb cleaner into the holes and then blew them out with compressed air.
I was wondering if I should be able to get the carb cleaner to come squirting out that small pair of holes. And if so, where I should squirt or blow in.
I'll put it together tomorrow. If everything goes like it did on Friday, I'll hook it all up, pull the starter cord a few times with the choke on, the fuel will fill the bowl and the motor will spring to life, run for 2 minutes and die suddenly. Then it won't start again no matter what I try. So, we'll see how accurate my prediction is. I will try to take a video. The engine just dies, it it not under load and not idling, just running normal. Last time it stopped, it just stopped like the kill switch had been flipped. The engine has a red "kill switch" on the side. Or at least I think that is what it is. The strange thing about the kill switch is that it has picture of an oil can or a gas can next to the switch. This is a kill switch right? Please tell me its a kill switch, it say "on" and "off" and its red. No idea why they would put a gas can on the switch.
The carb is starting to look really clean.
I'll post a picture of the needle. Can I replace the seat that the needle fits into?

Your "kill switch" may be a "oil alert" kill switch, you can turn the moter off with it... or if the oil is low the red will flash and kill the motor at the same time... after the motor stops try pulling over the motor and see if the (red) flashes as you pull it over..Take a picure of the switch and and what it hooks up too..


Good luck,

Friiy

Ahh yeah you have oil alert on that motor, check to make sure the oil is clean and "full", check to make sure your wires from the oil alert float assy. (on side of engine case) are not grounding anywhere.


I have seen these oil alerts on gum up on motors with dirty oil if they are a little low. They slosh and stick in the "low position" and kill the motor. Also make sure the engine is level when you run it.. (not on a bank or hill)

The seat is replaceable on this carb, but don't do it.. it takes special tools (reamers,insert tool and special drill bits)

I would try taking the wire off the oil alert and try it that way...

Good Luck,

Friiy

This is the switch. There is a white wire down under the carburetor that is loose and just dangling there unattached. <BR>How does the oil alert work. I have never seen one of these. The oil is clean. I just changed it. The level is not all the way to the top of the fill but its not really low. It is sooo cold outside tonight. Dropping into the low 40's. The leaves are turning already. <BR><BR>

There is a float mounted inside the engine, with a terminal post outside on the side of the motor.. the kill switch ground the ignition if you run it off, the float will ground the ignition if the oil is too low. I bet that "wire hanging" is grounding somewhere or the oil float is not working right..

When the oil level is low, that switch will blink instead of the spark plug fireing.... When this engine starts to die, look at the switch...

Friiy.

Is there any way of taking the low oil circuit out of the mix. If I disconnect the wires am I "telling the engine there's a problem so don't run"?

No, no problem taking the oil alert out, it will run fine...

Leave the switch hooked up, just take the spade lug off that runs down to the oil float assy.

Did your kill switch work before?

<BR> friiy wrote: <BR>I never had a chance to use the kill switch. The engine always died on its own before I could try it. The prevous owner used the throttle lever to kill the engine when he demo'd it for me. The trottle I think has ground on it. At least it looks like a ground. There are wires that go down to the throttle linkage. I have not figured out why those wires go down there. There are places for them to be attached. On some of these leaf loaders they add safety switches that prevent the engine (and impeller) from running when there's nothing attached to the vac's input collar.
So I should reasemble everything including the switch but this time not attach the red wire that runs to that oil sensing plug.
If that red light on the switch was coming on when the engine was cutting out, I doubt I would have seen it. It is ussually broad daylight out when I run it. It makes one heck of a loud sound when that impeller gets spinning. I would wake up the whole neighborhood if I ran it at night. The suction is amazing.

Runs like a top.  I got it back together last night and started it this morning. No hesitation, idles smooth and quite, revs right up there, sucked the leaves off the driveway.  It must have been that  bad crankcase sensor.  Maybe it got jossled around on the trip home and knocked out of position like friiy alluded to.  (That's a new one for me).  The leaking fuel pump was a real distraction in diagnosing this.  And the fact that it would start for a few seconds and then die? Very odd.    I was planning on leaving the oil sensor disconnected but if its worth my time to fix I will.

Thanks for all the help and patience.  I couldn't have done it without you (no exageration there).   I am ready for fall. Bring on those leaves!

You can put a Ohm meter to the float assy and check to see if fails on the float or if the problem is in the switch. It could be a bad wire bumpign into something and grounding the unit out.. You could get a new gasket so next time you change oil you can pull the float out and wash it out in some gas.. (the oil alert/ Guard unit is encased in a tube and has holes that let oil in. sometimes muck or sludge hamper's its movement inside)

Just keep a good eye on your oil till you get it working...

Maybe now you can till the leaves into you garden..


Friiy

&amp;amp;amp;lt;BR&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;BR&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;BR&amp;gt;&lt;BR&gt;<BR> friiy wrote: I never thought to try an ohm meter. I have one of those. So to check the switch I would disconnect the wire at the sensor's post on the outside of the engine block and then touch one lead from the meter to the post and one lead to the engine block? And if oil is full in the engine, the meter should show no continity, but if the oil sensor is showing &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;low&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot; (or faulty in this case) I should detect continuity? Is that about right? ;And then if the oil sensor checks out OK then I should test the wire and see if it's grounding out someplace. &amp;amp;amp;lt;BR&amp;amp;amp;gt;Yes, you read my mind with the leaves being tilled into the garden.