Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I think that the marketing folks have completely diluted the meaning of Professional/Commercial grade.  A few years ago it meant something.  Four years ago I purchased two Ariens 21 inch walk behind lawn mowers.  One was their standard consumer duty machine and the other was commercial duty.  There are MAJOR differences between the two. 

The consumer model came with a 6hp Intek engine and weighs around 110 lbs.  The commercial model came with a 6hp Robins chain driven OHC engine that as smooth as butter. This machine weighs 130 lbs. Where ever a plastic part was used on the consumer machine a steel part was used on the commercial model.  And where steel was used on the standard model, heavier gauge steel was used on the commercial one.  The list goes on...Friction drive vs heavy duty gear drive; spin off oil filter...etc.

I’m troubled when I see Simplicity market their “Pro Commercial” line of Snow Throwers. (Yeah...they use both words).  Their 28” Pro Commercial machine weigh exactly the same as their 28” non-Pro consumer machine.  The only difference I can see is channel handlebars and Power Boost...which is a feature, not a beefed up design.

My 2006 Ariens 11528LE non-Pro machine weighs 289lbs while the 2006 Pro model 11528 weighs 293...virtually the same. 

Maybe I’m delusional but I think that for the premium charged for a Pro/Commercial machine it should be built noticeably beefier than consumer models and with appropriate maintenance work all day long, seven days a week without a hiccup.

Now I’m seeing the term “Prosumer” being used to designate snow thrower grades.  It seems like the marketing folks have even confused themselves.

I agree that watering down the build quality of commercial machines is misleading.  Particularly in the case of Simplicity putting cheap press fit components in critical application areas of their flag ship line of snow throwers.   It's a dumb thing to do just to save a few bucks.  When I see that stuff starting to happen,  it erodes my confidence in their commitment to quality.  It makes me wonder if B&S are beginning to influence the construction of Simplicity/Snapper machines to make them cheaper to build and price mark them to compete with the other leading brands that have already gone that route. 

I don't particularly agree with the "heavier is better" line of thinking.  I'd buy a 150 lb. machine made out of pure titanium rather than a 300 machine built out of mild steel.  The quality of the steel means more than it's weight.  A good chromoly steel will be far more durable and lighter than a piece of mild steel of twice the thickness.  My 30+ year old Yamahas have chromoly frames.  I drilled a small hole through one of the thin frame gussets to attach a new coil component.  I used a titanium drill and it was an effort to get a drill bit through it.   These frames are so light that I could easily carry it down into my basement with little difficulty.   Another good example is my Toyota T100 is probably 500 lbs. lighter than my previous Ford Picks up of equivalent size.   I wouldn't trade my old Toyota for five new  Fords or any other North American vehicles for that matter.  In my view, heavier isn't a true reflection of a machine's quality. 

It's more than just weight but I think that weight can be an indicator.  On my lawn mowers for example a 14 gauge deck vs a 16 gauge deck.  Thicker, heavier brackets at stress points.  Steel wheels vs plastic wheels.  An engine rated for continuous use.  A more substantial drive system. etc.  All in all the commercial mower was designed with longevity in mind.

My point is that what ever you examine on the two products you see a meaningful difference between the consumer and commercial models.  I think that it's getting harder to see differences between consumer and commercial models these days.

As far as I can tell the only difference is the sticker, and a couple of sought-after things that people may have bought a particular model for in the first place.  For Simplicity, its the channel handlebars.  I see very little difference between the Ariens pro and the homo model, save the differential that is usefull if your 5' and weigh 100lbs, otherwise you'll be locking the wheels because it spins out.

An advantage would be the dealer, because the pros are mostly sold at dealerships.   For a professional running a fleet that would be a difference, but I don't think the premium on the machines is worth what they charge for the sticker.

borat wrote:

Out of curiosity, I just bought a Simplicity signature Pro 28" because I felt it was potentially more durable than what the competition has to offer.  Where has this machine been "cheapened up"?

You're preaching to the choir here.
In my case, the "pro" machine lasted  less than 6 hours!

I find that the "Signature Pro" name is a little over the top.  Let's not be discrete if one was to boast, might as well go with something like "Premium Super Duper Heavy Duty Commercial Mother of All Bad Arse Snowblower" and some flames decals on the side of the bucket.  But besides that, I do find that the "Signature Pro" line is tastefully styled.  :)  Not picking on Simplicity for any specific reason, of course, but I am quite impressed by the Signature Pro steel channel handlebars, even if the rest of the machine was no different from their standard models.

"Commercial grade" badging is eye candy and is quite a profitable idea.  Remember back in the 80's when trunk spoiler and gold badging was all the rage?  Before that was curb feelers and spoked wheels.

I agree that a professional model should be cable of being used all day long
by something like a snow removal company.  Sure the machines in such a
setting require regular and frequent maintenance but they shouldn't break
down with anything major during the season.  If machines are no longer
capable of this, and it looks that way, then we have a real problem.

Paul

I would tend to agree that many products have gone downhill in ways as companies search for a better bottom dollar.  I see this in areas like digital cameras, but that is another discussion.  As far as snowblowers go, it seems evident in some models offered in the big box stores.

However, not sure on models like the Simplicity.  The "Pro model"  that I bought this year seems identical to the one I considered buying a number of years ago.  I may be wrong, I haven't kept that up to date on any changes, but I don't see where Simplicity has down graded anything on the machine.  If it was considered "Pro" then, why not now?  Because it has not been significantly updated?  (The only new thing I've noticed is the electric remote chute rotation.)  Is it not as good because there other large frame blowers have improved to a level to near the Pro model? (Really don't know what changes have been made in that line, never looked at them before.)

Wonderful thing about the Simplicity brochure is that the units are lined up in columns next to one another and you can see what you are getting for the price differential.

Marc

pgill wrote:
Well one difference that I have been made painfully aware of is that they *used* to connect the drive disc to the spindle using threads. Now it's pressed on.

But I'm not bitter.........really.........well, maybe just a little.

I agree that it would be a hard sell for me to buy the Pro series vs. the Large Frame series.  Steel channel handle supports don't mean much to me and neither does power boost.  I'm certain that visually the channel work looks very rugged but in reality, the large frame will likely hold up just as well.  As previously indicated, some of the Pro features are more eye candy than a necessity.  I wouldn't turn down either machine but I won't pay a premium either for stuff that really doesn't matter.  

My dad has a 7hp self propelled 2 stage Sno-Bird that he bought new in 1975.  He lives in the snow belt so the machine gets a constant workout.  The machine has never been in for repair save for a leaky float bowl.  Thats 35 years of wear and tear and it's still going strong.  I don't know of a machine made today that I'd put money on to give 35 years of trouble free service. 

That Sno-Bird was built with function in mind over features.  I'm not against features such as electronically controlled chutes, EZ turn, power boosts, etc (actually I really like EZ turn).  But those features should not prevent a premium machine from doing its main job.  This isn't rocket science...it's simply moving snow from one place to another.  I  think that the people who engineered that Sno-Bird cringe when they see the "advanced manufacturing techniques" (as Borat says) used today

Modern manufacturing  processes from different perspectives:  

Engineer:        minimum acceptable materials & production methods to meet basic requirements of the product with built in planned obsolescence (and still keep his job)

Accountant:    minimum manufacturing costs vs. maximum profits (without losing customers and getting the engineer fired)

Salesman's pitch:    advanced construction materials and techniques to provide consumers with cost effective and reliable, long lasting products

One of the above seems out of place.  Care to chose which one?

Tubby wrote:

I hope that won't ever be an issue for what I will use the machine for.  However, if someone ever wanted to it seems like it wouldn't take much to either replace it with an older shaft and disk with threads.  Perhaps not much has changed in the design, and it will still accept the older parts.  Either way it shouldn't be hard to machine the new style shaft and disk to accept a key, which should be just as good as the older threads.

pgill wrote:
Being that your machine in brand new, I'd be talking to the dealer to let him know that you're aware of that component failure and would like to know if the better piece used on a large frame machines can be put on yours.   I'd want a machine that won't cause me problems.  I don't want to wait for it to happen then deal with it.   Unless the piece that let go on Tubby's machine was a one off defect and the others are good, I'd be willing to let it go.  If it's been reported that it's a common failure point.  I'd be demanding a fix now.  Not after it breaks.