Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I don't really need another project this winter but could anyone tell me if this BCS tiller is worth putting some time into? Right now all I know is that the cylinder in the italian (Acme) 8hp engine does not seem to move at all. There is what smells like diesel fuel on the top of the cylinder when you pull the sparkplug.  I checked the reviews on this web page and the new models seem to have satisfied owners.  I don't really need the snowblower part that came with it. Just the tiller. Any thoughts/comments/concerns are welcome. If you know the vintage of the unit that would be of interest to me.  The tires have a few very small cracks (where the wheels sat for a long time without much air)  but nothing that would concern me.  I don't have any information from the previous owner other than it's been in the family a long time, sat in a barn in VT, and the engine is siezed up.  It uses one of those oil bath air filters.  It has three forward speeds and one speed reverse. Would an inexpensive chinese (honda knockoff) 8hp bolt right on?

BCS has a reputation for being a sturdy gear driven machine with alot of optional attachments. I couldn't afford one and went with the less expensive belt driven Troy Bilts. I think some of the older versions had diesel engines. I'd suggest you do some googleing and see what you can find in terms of service and parts. The BCS Web site has a dealer locater.  www.bcs-america.com

If it's a gasoline powered engine and it smells like diesel fuel, there's a good chance that the piston seized and someone poured diesel fuel into it to free the piston.  In all likelihood, the engine is probably irreparable.  However, that does not rule out the potential for the rest of the machine.  Being as rugged as they are, and from appearance in the picture, the rest of the unit might just be a diamond in the rough.  If I were you, I'd get in touch with Small Engine Warehouse ( http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/ProductList.asp ) and put a new engine on that thing. 

Jonathan wrote:

Really? A diesel engine?  It has a spark plug so maybe this one runs on gas (I don't see any fuel injectors). But engine has a written reference on the side for what looks like an engine oil and transmission oil spec?  It says " 30 SAE Diesel and 40 SAE Diesel."  Much of the writing on the machine is in Italian.  Is "diesel" just another word for "oil" in Italy? When an engine siezes up what has happened? Is it just rust? I have seen engines with little or no compression but never a siezed cylinder. Does it just rust in place from sitting too long?  The BCS came from a barn in Vermont where is sat for a long time. It looks to me like someone has recently been tinkering with it.  There's lots of plastic on it here and there so I don't think its a dinorsaur.  I wish I had more to go on.  Thanks for the bcs web link.

Guess it's a diesel? Shows you how much I know. This might explain why the cylinder is siezed up, there's definitely gas (I'm not that bad) in the gas tank. 

Did I mention that the tires look pretty good.

 

NO.... it is not a diesel diesels don't have sparkplugs ( unless they are made to start on gas first to warm them up like my fathers IH bulldozer),  that placard is telling you what type of oil to run in what climate...

Everything is fixable,   more than likely the drive is in gear or the blades are engaged.. and you can not turn it over.  Those are very durable units.  even if it is (froze up they sell oversize pistons and ring sets for the motors, someone could have set it on its side and locked up the motor with engien oil...

Just start toubleshooting....

Let us know.

Friiy

This is what I found on a year or so ago on these motors....

http://webbsfarmsupplies.com/Acme_Motors.html

they have some good info resource.

With luck,

Friiy

With some help from the board, I found this code buried under crud on the side of the unit:
 BCS 712 7B
*55159*
DGM1471
MA 0M
Now I have no clue what these numbers mean but I think that the 712 is the model number. (Update: No these numbers mean nothing. The BCS is a model 715 produced in the late 70's or early 80's.)  And the numbers between the stars (*) is a serial number.
The clutch has some issue. It does not move when I squeeze the handle.  

HAve you taken the plug out yet?   I am wondering if there is rust on it.. ( the inside electrode... that is )

Have you checked to see if it is out of gear yet ?

Friiy

friiy wrote:

Friiy you are on a lucky streak.  Yes it was stuck in gear. It spins freely now  (maybe a little too freely?).  Hard to say how much compression but it does spin. I pulled the plug and sucked out some of the fluid that was in there. I took a small baby food jar of this fluid to my local auto parts store and they said it is  "Marvel Mystery Oil."  That stuff has a  strange yet familiar smell (kerosene?) and is not diesel as I had first suspected.  I wire brushed the plug but there was no rust  on it just the normal crud (not white or grey) and the plug also had some of the Mystery oil on it.   I have not found the electrode yet., nor do I know what one is.  Working on this motor is a little like working in the dark with all the  Italian. and the symbols on the choke, throttle and fuel valve have me completely baffled. My first impression of the Acme engine is that it is (or at least once was) very well constructed and  the  design leaves little to be desired. The pull starter is very beefy, the starter cord is made of  steel cable, and most of the moving parts seem made to last a long time.  Tommorrow I'm going to follow down some leads (thanks)  and track down an owner's manual and service manual. 

Have you determined if it's a diesel or gasoline engine?   Personally, being trained many, many,  years ago as a diesel mechanic, I don't recall seeing any diesles with a spark plug.  Usually they are equipped with glow plugs which are much different than a spark plug. 

You may want to start  putting some of that liquid wrench on the nuts/ bolts of the blower housing and carb mounting hardware....they seem a little rusty. 

The electrode is the tip of the spark plug that the spark jumps across....If it is rusty,  the motor may have had water in it or sat outside without running for quite a bit.

Start by draining the bowl on the carb,   see what comes out.... (water, rust, oil, bugs, dead mouse)

drain the tank...

make sure it has oil in it.... don't worry about changing it at this point..

with the unit in the off/ stop positon and the plug wire grounded to the frame.       Pull the motor over with the rewind and blow all that marval mystery oil out of the motor top end into a rag or something..  The piston will shoot that stuff out the plug hole like a spray bottle.  

Clean the plug with a squirt of carb cleaner and reinstall it.. Put the plug wire back on.

As you may have heard the motor only needs---spark , fuel and compression to run....

To make sure all of these are within limits for operation, this is a what I do to troubleshoot... ( do this outside)

1) Take the air cleaner off and dribble about eight to ten drops of gas in the intake to the carb..

2)  Take the engine control and place it in the start/ run postion..

3)  Try to start the engine with the pullstart (pull it about 3 times)

  B) If the engine does nothing , try a little more gas and try  to  pull start again...(only do this a few times, you do not want to cause a fire hazzard by unburned fuel collecting in the muffler and engine)

4) Did the engine pop and fire off?  If so the compression is good enough to run and it has spark.... If not it may have deeper issues spark or compression,  and you troubleshoot accordingly ..

The carb is always the first to go, it requires the most maintenance... The spark and the compression are most likely good...( solid state ignition and you have to wear out or abuse a moter to ruin compression, and that takes time )

The story most people tell with broken equipment is " It ran fine,  then next time I tried to use it,   it would not start... " ..   Not..." I was using it and it blew up  or it stopped running and would not restart."....   See where I am going with this...

Sometimes I will sit and bottle feed the engine by dripping gas in the motor.   A sample hair shampoo or dish soap bottles or a little "one shot 2 stoke oil bottle with a hole in the lid filled with gas works well ( Keep big cans of gas away from the motor running or not)..   

I do all this before I go rebuilding or cleaning a  carb on a engine I may not want to fix....

Good Luck.

Friiy

 

So.... Underdog. You say it's built better than a Fiat?

Looks like it has already out lasted  most Fiats..

Friiy

My sister bought a Fiat once.  Oh the misery....
I appreciate the trouble shooting advice. The last thing I want to do is waste time and money on a hunk of junk. I was trying to decide last night where I should start.

So I'll follow the list and see where it takes me. My only issue to start is that I cannot tell when the choke is open or closed, when the throttle is full or off, and where's the ignition kill switch anyway?  There is also a strange square box under the carborator with a button on it.  It looks like it is connected to a fuel line of some sort. But it does not look like a primer.  The transmission clutch does not want to move (see photo below).

Start by draining the bowl on the carb,   see what comes out.... (water, rust, oil, bugs, dead mouse) (1st on my to-do list)

drain the tank... (OK, This will be 2nd on my list)

make sure it has oil in it.... don't worry about changing it at this point.. (it has plenty of old oil)

with the unit in the off/ stop positon and the plug wire grounded to the frame.       Pull the motor over with the rewind and blow all that marval mystery oil out of the motor top end into a rag or something..  The piston will shoot that stuff out the plug hole like a spray bottle.  (I did this last night, it sprayed out all over my good pants) 

So:

Clean the plug with a squirt of carb cleaner and reinstall it.. Put the plug wire back on. (This is done)

1) Take the air cleaner off and dribble about eight to ten drops of gas in the intake to the carb..

2)  Take the engine control and place it in the start/ run postion.. (No clue on this one)

3)  Try to start the engine with the pullstart (pull it about 3 times)

  B) If the engine does nothing , try a little more gas and try  to  pull start again...(only do this a few times, you do not want to cause a fire hazzard by unburned fuel collecting in the muffler and engine)

4) Did the engine pop and fire off?  If so the compression is good enough to run and it has spark.... If not it may have deeper issues spark or compression,  and you troubleshoot accordingly ..

borat wrote:

Yes, it has been determined that this ACME is an 8HP gasoline engine. The engine was custom made for BCS pre-1980.  If  the engine needs to be swapped out for another make (honda, briggs, etc) you need a $200 adapter. 

The Model Number Plate is riveted onto the cylinder shroud on the oil fill side of the engine. The  ACME gas model used on this BCS 2-wheel tractors is AL 290B.
The engine has a recoiling starter with cable.
The points and condenser for ignition are located in a square box with a button on it (directly below the carburetor and muffler).
The air filter is an oil bath with a washable plastic filter element.
The fuel tank is metal with a metal cap.
The muffler is a large (vertical) canister type.
The Carburetor is equipped with a metal float bowl.

This web site that was pointed out to me was very helpful: http://www.earthtoolsbcs.com/html/acme_engine_parts.html

Being very familiar with old machines that have metal fuel tanks, I feel obligated to tell you to ensure you thoroughly inspect the interior of the fuel tank for rust & dirt.  I have five old vintage Japanese motorcycles with steel tanks.  Fortunately, they are in fairly good shape.  However, the 1974 RD350 that I'm presently restoring had quite a bit of loose rust and debris in the tank.  I pulled off the fuel spout, threw a handful of  3/8" and 1/4" nuts and short bolts (count them before you put them in)  into the tank and give a good ten to fifteen minutes of shaking and rolling around inside the tank.   Then I added half a liter of varsol and shook it some more.  Poured out all of the fluid & nuts & bolts (count them again to make sure you got them all).   Once emptied, flush with hot water a couple of times them put a garden hose in the tank and flush it some more.  When finished with that, give it one last flush with two liters of boiling water and empty.  Leave the cap open to allow water vapour to evaporate.  I left mine in a warm sunny place for a couple hours then gave the inside a couple of very long bursts of WD-40 and swished it all over the tank. 

If you don't want to do the above, scrap the steel tank and get your hands on a plastic tank from an old snow thrower.     

borat wrote:

Yes, I looked in the metal tank and there is a small amount of rust. I was going to take it off and fill it with Evapo-Rust.  The manufacturer has instructions for doing this.  But I like your idea better.  Thankyou.

friiy wrote: No spark.  I do not think that the engine is sending an electrical current to the spark plug.  I unskrewed  the spark plug from  the top of the cylinder and then I hooked it back up to the spark plug wire.  Then I pulled the starter.  I watched the spark plug carefully and I did not see any spark.  Is this the proper way to check for spark? The wire that goes to the spark plug comes right out of the side of the crankcase.  Something inside of the crankcase that generates the electrical current may not be working.  That or the fact that the kill switch is smashed.  Something is preventing the spark plug from sparking.   I event tried a new plug just fo hoo haa's amd turned out all the lights so that it would be really dark and easy to see a spark on the plug.

Disconnect the kill switch from rest of the tiller,  keep the wire from tuching anything..,(kill switch wire)

The kill switch is most likely grounding to the frame keeping it from making spark... (   the kill switch is smashed against the frame and grounding out)

put the plug back in the engine and start it with some fuel...

Friiy

You have to ensure the spark plug is grounded out against the machine somewhere.  As long as the plug is resting against something metal on the machine it will be grounded.  You might want to secure it somehow.  It's tough to watch for a spark while pulling on the pull start and having the spark plug jumping around.  Take a bare piece of copper wire approx. eight inches long.  Wrap one end around the threaded portion of the spark plug and clamp (vice grips) the other end to a ground point on the machine.  If the machine has an off/on switch or a carburetor linkage activated engine cut off switch, you might want to have a good look at the contact points and wire connections.  If you suspect the switch, by-pass it with a piece of wire.  Also, that machine is fairly old and despite the fact that it's a good, solid piece of equipment, the electrics can be weakened over time and more-so if left out in the elements.  Personally, if you have continuity with the electrical system, I'd suspect that the points just need to be cleaned.  If you have access to the points, get one of those fingernail emery boards (like a fingernail file but made from cardboard/sand paper) and put it between the points allowing the pressure of the points spring to put pressure on both sides of the emery board simultaneously.  Clean the points up and give it another shot.  When testing for spark, do it in a poorly lit area.  The spark isn't exactly a bolt of lightning.  Good luck.

Lets not get him changing the timing or ripping into the points yet....   My guess is that the machine has a fairly good cover over the points mechanism that is weather resistant... much like my Koher..  My Koher has been in the elements since 1976, and I have changed the points once  (just because they are old)...  never because of a problem... 

I would recommend leaving the points alone until you try disconnecting the kill switch..   These points are made of the same material as the ones on my old bug , old, old Ford, old  Porshe and my old Hondas.  But they are not firing as many times as a car,  plus the unit only runs a few hours a week tops...

Besides the best test of a Magneto or secondary coil is a Magneto Tester,  otherwise the putting it in the engine is the best....   The dialectric resistance of the air in the cyclinder changes during the compression stroke..   I can get a Mag spark to jump 3 inches in a vaccum, and .035 under 18 psi..

Just food for thought.

 Put the plug in and try to start it...

Good Luck

Friiy

borat wrote:

The points and condenser for ignition are located in a square box with a button on it (directly below the carburetor and muffler). Why is there a button?  The kill switch wire goes all the way down and into that box.  Very strange.

friiy wrote: The wire to the kill switch is a very long wire. It will take some work to disconnect it. It is fastened  at various locations.  Some of the wire has lost it's covering. I don't see anything grounding but again it winds and twists all over the place before going into that little box with the mysterious button.

The button is just another kill switch mounted on the motor,   just open the box and disconnect the "remote kill switch"  wire that goes up the handlebar.   you can leave the wire on the unit strapped to the handle bar for now..

The remote kill button on the handle bar and the button on the block just ground out the mag and points...

Friiy

friiy wrote:

I opened the square box and disconnected the wire to the kill switch.  Then I put a small amount of fuel in the intake and pulled the starter.  No spark.  Then I pulled the spark plug and hooked it to the spark plug wire (the wire is in excellent shape).  I grounded the spark plug this time to the engine block and turned out all the lights.  Then I pulled the starter cord again. No spark. 

Since the box was open, I cleaned the points while I was in there.  They seemed to be in very good shape.  I cleaned them with a small emery cloth and then checked the gap with a spark plug gap tool.  The gap was within spec so I just left it alone.  What about the condensor?  Those are still available for this model. 

The bowl was removed from the carb. The float works as it should and fuel fills the bowl.  I was able to confirm the correct position for the choke control and for the fuel line shut off (opposite of what I had thought before). The bowl had some crud in the base but nothing terrible.  It is soaking in carb cleaner now. The float did not seem to have any holes in it. 

Have you tried a diffrent plug?

I see (I think ) three wires going to the points..

one should go to the condenser     

one should go to the coil. (under the blower housing)     

The third should go to the remote kill swich on the tiller handlebars...

This is what you see correct?

make sure the wire going to the remote kill is disconnected and the rest are hooked up. 

Do you see the points moving ? (I have seen the plunger gum up and stick / slow down)

Is there a wire that goes down to the throttle linkage with a kill tab on it?  The kill tab is make to ground out if the throttle is pulled back below idle.. If so,  make sure it is not grounding out..

Friiy

Do you have a volt/ ohm meter?...   with the points open check to make sure there is no continuity to ground from  the wires connection..

Friiy

friiy wrote: Have you tried a diffrent plug? YES, no change

I see (I think ) three wires going to the points..one should go to the condenser...one should go to the coil. (under the blower housing) ...The third should go to the remote kill swich on the tiller handlebars...This is what you see correct? make sure the wire going to the remote kill is disconnected and the rest are hooked up. 
YES, this is correct. I took the picture just before removing the kill switch wire.  I needed a photo because I was worried about getting everything back the way it was. To remove the kill switch wire you need to completely remove the screw that holds the spring to the points and the other two wires.  The other wires just slide out but the kill switch is a "captive" connection so you have  to remove the screw.  I did that and then put the two wires back on for the condensor and the coil. All the wires looked to be in good shape. No rotted out insulation or anything like that.

Do you see the points moving ? (I have seen the plunger gum up and stick / slow down)
Yes, as I pulled the starter I could watch the points come together and then pull apart.

Is there a wire that goes down to the throttle linkage with a kill tab on it?  The kill tab is made to ground out if the throttle is pulled back below idle.. If so,  make sure it is not grounding out.. No, there it to kill on teh throttle linkage

friiy wrote:
Thank you.  Yes, I do have a volt/olm meter. It is a very small battery powered meter that I have used on electronics. And yes, the meter has a continuity setting on it.  So I should rotate the engine until the points are open and then I shoud take take the two leads from the meter and  I should put one of the leads on the points/bracket where the wires would normally attach  and then touch the other lead to the aluminum engine block? Is this correct? When set on "continuity" the meter beeps when it detects a continuous circuit.  So I should not hear a beep if everything is working correctly, right?

What you stated is true,  but you should have the coil-to-points wire disconnected to test...

you should be able to see the points open and close on the meter as you slowly turn over the motor..

There is a Tecumseh engine service manual on the site as a link... The ignition troubleshooting (points and coil) are the same,   except shape and location..  if you read the chaper (just a few pages) it will give you a great understanding of how the system works and how to troubleshoot..

I still think nothing is wrong with it... just something is shorted or grounded..

If I could have  a dollar for every person that tried to buy a coil or magneto from me to repair their  " ignition problem"..   I would never have to ask the wife for beer money again..

. hahaha

Good luck

Friiy

That is more for elctronic ignition than points....

also alot of that is nonsense as for as  (checking magnet strengh and coil to flywheel airgap )  and so on.  The thought I have is , no one has butchered into this machine yet... as far as taking this thing apart and putting it back together and really screwing things up..  I would keep troubleshooting as though the machine did not start one day...not like someone brought it to you in a box.

Magnets do not dissipate unless exposed to EXTREME Heat,   EXTREME current flow. (like a shorting a battery through the flywheel for a minute). 

Friiy

It doesn't  look like it has alot of wear on it,  The tread is still there, the tin over the tines is in good shape.   A Diamond in the rough...

Friiy

We've got a spark! Terrific. Well sort of.  Here's what happened. (sorry its so long)

1) with all the wires disconnected from the bracket/screw (the one attached to  one of the points)  the bracket/screw would not show continuity (short) when the other lead of the tester was touched to the block. This was true when the  point were closed and even when they were open. (either way, nothing was showing a ground to the engine)

2) with the coil wire connected to the points bracket/screw there was continuity (grounding situation?) between the bracket/screw.  This was true if the points were open and also true if  the points were closed. It always grounded.

3) Now this is the strange part so bear with me.  With only the condensor wire connected to the points/bracket and the points open, there was was no continuity (no grounding situation).  With the points closed there was still no grounding, But then one time there was. Yes, just randomly the tester beeped. But then I could not repeat the result.

4) The points.  This is really bizzare.  With all the wires removed from the bracket/screw  and the points open there was no continuity (no grounding) when one lead was attached to one point and another lead was attached to the other (second) point.  With the points closed this was still true. This situation existed with the coil and condensor connected to the screw/bracket.  The current was not going between the two points.  I washed them down with cleaner and ran the a very fine grit sandpaper between them (for the third time). They don't seem dirty or worn.  Granted they are old.  But sometimes,( when they test positive for continuity) the spark plug gets a really nice popping spark (i can see it easily and i have issues with my vision). Other times the points don't show continuity and there's no spark.  I know they need to be clean  and gapped right. But there's something more to this.  When i test them for continuity I don't even use the face of the points, I use their sides. Where would a point loose it's connection.   Are the soldered on? What hold them in place? Does this sound like I'm looking in the right place for a solution?

Good news: the kill switch and its lead wire are fine. And the ACME sometimes has spark!  Friiy, this was a good day. 

Have you checked the spark plug wire and spark plug cap for continuity?   You might have a bad wire/cap causing an intermittent loss of conductivity.

borat wrote:
Yes, I did check the plug wire and spark plug cap for continuity. Both seemed fine at the time. I will check them again.  Why would the two points not show continuity when they are pushed together. That makes no sense.  Maybe I should get a closer look at them and check the gap again.  I found shop service manual on the internet.  I'm hoping it arrives by the weekend. Then I can confirm the gap setting. Maybe they aren't making good contact with each other.  That Marvel Mystery oil was everywhere and the carb above drips directly onto the point when the box is open.

Did you wash the points down after you used the sand paper?..... The points run on  the primary windingsof the magneto ignition system (low  voltage/ no jumping spark ). That means that the points MUST touch when they close no oily residue,  no leftover grit from the sandpaper.  One little grain of sand paper sand will screw up the system...  Carb cleaner sometimes has a lubricant  in it or a light penetrating oil that can act as a diaelectric,   clean the points with rubbing alcohol or contact cleaner..

Good luck

Friiy

No, I did not wash down the points  them after sanding them.  This theory for the lack of spark (contaminated points) makes the most sense.  Maybe there was enough Marvel Mystery oil on the sides of the points to prevent a good contact with the tester. I will wash them down with alcohol.  The gap on the points is supposed to be .018 and the gap on the  spark plug is supposed to be .025.   The spark plug for this ACME engine is Champion L86 or NGK 7534.

A few posts back Borat talked about the plug boot....   One thing to check on the rubber plug boot is that when the rubber drys out the boot becomes brittle and alittle crunchy when you roll it around in your fingers flexing it.  When it gets this way the boot can conduct spark and  cause the engine to misfire..

I  always remove the rubber boot and inspect the tin end that snaps over the plug.  I also check to see if the pug wire end is exposed and green or rotted out from corrosion.  Do this as a side note if you can get to it without tearing the machine apart or damaging the wire.

Friiy

It's running now!  Cleaned the points with alchohol and let the clutch soak overnight in a penetrating oil.  Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvE3O5QJSNg&fmt=18

I tiilled and seeded the front yard this a.m.  It tills very nicely.  Its also very easy to handle.  You can run the the tiller with just one hand. The direction on the side of the unit say to use a straight 40 weight oil. Those directions were printed in the late 1970's. Is it safe to say that a multi viscosity  oil would be a better option today?  Or do I look for a straight 40 weight?

A huge thanks to everyone on the board for being patient and helping out.         

Congratulations.  Persistence has paid off.  I like that in a person. 

I'd probably go with a 15W40 Rotella in the summer.  If you use it for snow removal in the winter, I'd go with a 5W30 synthetic.   You might want to do a compression test just to see if it  may need a set of rings.  Otherwise, it looks/runs pretty good.  

     The tag I think said 40 summer/ 30 winter..   Multi-weight oil won't hurt anything,  It may use a little, (burn) if you use the multi-grade.    I would use a decent cheaper oil now with a oil change,  and air cleaner service,  then use it a bit  (hour or two),  then change to what you feel you like the best...  

     Looks like it tilled and killed a few mosquitoes,  I bet that muffler was full of oil and/ or  Marvel mystery oil...   Looks running it burned all out,  good...Did your neighbor call the fire department.

Well, at least Marvel oil smells beter than gear oil burning...

Might want to put a fuel filter on it and change the gas line at the same time....

Keep A eye on the Carb,   If it starts to drip you may need a needle/seat or a flush of the fuel system (grit in the gas)..

I would put a fuel shut-off on it if you are going to keep it in the Garage.   Just to perevent fuel spills and fire hazard.

You should post some pics  of the work it did.  I find with my Troy Bilt, I llike to keep the snow / dozer blade on all the time.  That way the tiller always is sitting level and the it makes a hell of a bumper. 

I use the Troy bilt to level dirt in the yard, and level a circlular drive that is gravel.  They work great..

Now go get some Gunk and clean it up,  Put the blade on and post a pic of or two of the kids siting on it like its a pony  (not running of course),  Name it and put it in the garage where your wifes car normaly sits. ( she will love you much more for that..)

Waiting for the pics.

Friiy