Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

  A newly acquired 5hp 70’s Ariens snowblower started fairly well over several days with test starts and running the engine for a minute.  Then it started a bit harder and just barely putted along having very week combustion after 10-to 16 cycles and died.  It’s been about the same every since then.  It won’t start easily now with gas through the carb.  I can get it going with gas through the plug but it only sputs along for about 10 cycles, very faintly and dies.

   It has 60psi compression after 5 pulls cold.  There was no to  very faint spark so I replaced the points which were pitted.  The spark is good but the same thing of running faintly for a short time and dies.

   My test of the coil was a little fuzzy so I replace the coil but the same thing happens.  It only starts by dumping gas through the plug and it does so in an unusual but consistent way.  I have to pull about 10 times and I hear a faint put or two with a slight breath of smoke.  The next pull or two a few more puts, the next pull about 6 to 10 puts, the next a couple then nothing.  I can do that over and over.  What’s unusual is that it never fires quickly but takes many pulls. 

   If I change the plug often it does not change things.  I check the spark and it seems very fine. I have a plug with the arm cutoff so the spark jumps to the rim.  I test the tester on other machines and their spark is about the same as on the 5hp. 

   Gas is not an issue, spark is not an issue, air is there.  I pulled the head and the gasket is fine.  The valves look ok.  The intake lightly covered with black carbon, the output a light brown ash.

   The timing is set as best I can set it.  The points gap is correct.  I don’t have a dial indicator so guessing BTDC, take off the point wire and use an ohmmeter so just get the points to open at BTDC.  I’m sure I’m at the right cycle as I’ve checked it over and over with a flashlight through the plug watching the valves and watching the key turn on the crank. I’m probably not on the money for BTDC but think I’m close enough.

   The only thing I can think of is if there was a compression leak from a wall crack or rings.  With 60 psi I think I should be running with no load fine.  It should at least run and sound like a good motor even it did not have any power. 

    I’ve obviously missed something so the reason I’m posting.  This business of running fine then within a few days very hard to start or no starting with running only for a short period and with very week combustions has happened before with a lawnmower and a chainsaw.  All very quickly deteriorated to non-starters unless gas was dumped into the plug.  When they did catch and only after many pulls they ran only for a short time and very weakly.  Since it’s happened three times it must have happened to someone else and be a fairly common thing but I’ve never seen a write-up on the web similar.

trouts

Maybe by write up was no so clear. The machine has only been around for a few weeks. It has a carb problem but I flushed the tank and line, pulled the carb and cleaned it. The thing worked fine.

After a week of test starts it went to this mode of very week combustions and dying. From that point on I bypassed the carb and have only been putting in gas through the plug. I don't expect it to run more than 20-30 cycles before dying but they should be strong healthy sounding like the week before. They were not. The combustions are wimpy like 1/10 normal. There's no sharp exhaust sound.

On looking at the spark the spark seemed weak or non-existant so I changed the points. It would not start. I changed the coil and got spark back. I'm at this time still putting gas in through the plug and changing plugs often just in case - all known good.

Spark came back but it still had very wimpy combustion. I pulled the head to check the gasket and it seemed fine. The weird part was the buildup on the intake valve, not much but there. There was a little more around the valve walls. The exhaust valve had a whiteish brown ash and no carbon around. I thought there would be carbon pretty much evenly around so confusing.

60psi is boarderline but should be enough to run well without load. It did a week before so it's the sudden change which is a puzzle.

I've tried to isolate so eliminated the gas system and only going through the plug. The spark was fuzzy before but always there when I check now. It's very hard to make the gas through the plug fire and takes several pulls. It catches and gives a short run of very week combustions.

I don't know much about valves but they don't seem to have hotspots. The intake is evenly covered with carbon. The exhaust evenly covered in brown white ash.

I described this to a guy today and he suggested pulling the head to see if the piston moves around at all which would suggest rings.

Borat - you suggested exhaust swirling aound the intake causing the carbon which might be happening. Maybe the intake is not seating fully and causing that. I don't know if the valves are ok underneath, seating properly.

The issue seems like valves or rings but how could that possibly happen in a week? I don't think it can be valves or rings but the symptoms say it's probably is. ??

if you try starting the engine without putting fuel does it start or sputter at all?, if not pull the plug and see if theres fuel on it, if there no fuel on it sounds like a carb problem. with 60 psi cold it should start and run just fine. does the engine backfire at all?  just wondering how you adjusted the timing because as far as l know there not adjustable.

It was not starting using the fuel system and the spark was weak at first so I wanted to isolate things. I have been putting gas in through the plug to eliminate the carb to focus on spark.

It does not start quickly with a pull or two with gas through the plug as most motors do. I did this many times changing plugs often. I changed out the points and coil and have decent spark now but won't start quickly.

When it does start it barely fires and goes like this. After 5-6 pulls it gets a whispy combustion or two. The two to three after another pull or two. Then several on the next pull or two, then nothing - the gas is used up. I don't care about running continually off the gas system. I'm looking for a healthy combustion. I think weak combustion must be due to either the timing being off, valves or rings.

The timing has been gone over several times but I don't have a dial indicator to stick through the plug. I'm guessing BTDC. What I don't know is how much leeway there is in settting BTDC. If it's got to be exact then I can't do that. If it can be very close and off but still give a healthy combustion then I don't have that. If it can be close but slightly off then I've got a valve or ring problem. (The head was pulled and the gasket ok).

I did a wet test today which was 80 so I think that says valves and the motor hosed. What I don't get in all this is how it can go from running strong and a week later a wimp. ??
trouts2

first of all squirting fuel in the spark plug hole is not gonna give you a reasonable combustion (air to fuel mixture) and in some cases the engine wont fire at all. 80 psi of compression cold is pretty good last time l checked and if compression increased when you added oil its the rings are worn and not the valves, you need to fix or replace the carb to diagnose probally, but as l mentioned crank the engine several times and pull the plug and see if its wet, if not you need a carb, or check and make sure you dont have a cracked intake manifold or a large intake leak. and the only way you can adjust the timing is buy the gap of the points which isnt adjustable, when you set the gap to .020 then your set., so if you got good spark/ points are set/ good compression then your only missing (air to fuel mixture) (fuel) hopefully this will help keep us posted.

>>first of all squirting fuel in the spark plug hole is not gonna give you a reasonable combustion (air to fuel mixture) and in some cases the engine wont fire at all.

What you say sounds reasonable but I've always gotten solid combustions with healthy engines even if they were not 100%. This engine is way off the mark. It's barely catching.

>>80 psi of compression cold is pretty good last time l checked and if compression increased when you added oil its the rings are worn and not the valves,

It's 60 dry and 80 wet. I don't have a lot of experience with compression tests but 60 is usually enough to run and toss snow so healthy combustions but not on this engine. An engine at 30 can at least sound healthy even if it gushes oil out of the breather tube. For rings I would expect a much higher reading for wet.
My net reading suggests that low close wet and dry readings are due to valves. I've had two engines that were pushing oil through the breather and their wet and dry readings were greatly seperated so I thought rings.

>>you need to fix or replace the carb to diagnose probally, but as l mentioned crank the

I have a clean spare I could put on but thought it a waste of time. This is an older Ariens and there's no bulb prime. It's got a push in cover that goes over the carb throat. Going through the plug should get healthy fires even if not peaked.

>>the only way you can adjust the timing is buy the gap of the points which isnt adjustable, when you set the gap to .020 then your set., so if you got good spark/ points are set/ good compression then your only missing (air to fuel mixture) (fuel)

I set my .02 on the peak of the dwell then loosened the ignition component frame so it could be moved to fix the opening of the points while at BTDC with a multimeter. I wound the engine through several cycles while looking through the plug hole to insure I'm at the proper place. I know I'm not on the money but I think it's close enough to fire well which does not happen.

Your understanding can only come from my subjective description about the firing being weak. The firing is like a repeated dying last gasps. The difference between a usual sequence of combustions (with gas through the plug) with a healther engine and this engine is like night an day. It's not small or off a bit it's huge. Gas dumped in through the plug will explode. It's just barely firing, just barely getting the crank around.

After reading about your problem.. a few thoughts!
Are you sure that your exhaust valve is not hanging up..  perhaps due to carbon on the stem or in the valve guide ??  Also, has the air temperature changed dramatically during the run and no run time ??
An engine which runs well in the summer will not always run well (if at all) in the winter without increasing the fuel flow. Did you say that you did replace th coil ?  I have had a few cases where mice, etc.
have chewed the coil wire causing a weak or no spark !!  Finally, some TEC's have a jet in the carb. which have an almost imposible to see hole in it which can plug up very easily !! Even seasoned mechanics have been known
to miss this one !!

>>Are you sure that your exhaust valve is not hanging up..
I'm not sure about that at all and don't know how to check that. I've watched the valves cycle many times by hand and they were opening and closing ok. When I removed the head I scrapped off all the surface buildup and tried to get under the valve and clean the seat as best I could. They opened and closed but I'm not sure it was properly.

This all happened in the last two weeks here in Massachusetts and the temp difference might have ranged between 50 and 75.

The points were replaced with no improvement. The coil was then replaced with no improvement. I've got the old coil back on now and it's the same. The spark jump outside the engine looks passable but not the best. It looks better than other engines that run fine though so I'm pretty confident the spart is ok. There are several new plugs around so I'm swapping and cleaning them constantly to insure I'm using a clean dry working plug.

>>An engine which runs well in the summer will not always run well (if at all) in the winter without increasing the fuel flow.

This is not about trying to run smoothly or well so much as going from health combustions to extremely weak combustions in a matter of days.

If I remember right this carb has a fairly large hole close to the base of the nut. I've seen some that have one or a few very tiny holes and always check for them.

I think I'm bypassing the carb altogether by dumping gas into the plug. Based on niper88's post I did some more tests. The older machines do not have a rubber button push prime. They had a spring loaded bakelite button attached to a carb throat cover. The manual says to get a prime you push the cover onto the throat and pull the start cord through a compression cycle.
I had a few engines like this and they were a bit tougher to start than engines with the soft rubber primes. I put gas directly into the throat and then tried starting. The machine got a couple of very wimpy puffy combustions a tad weaker than dumping gas through the plug but basically the same thing.

I'm under the impression that I could remove the carb altogether and still test the combustion part. I think if I removed the carb I should still get healthy sounding explosions from the engine. By dumping gas in the plug I should get a short run of decent explosions and I can't get that with this engine.

The explosions sound very weak like the combustion is happening way off BTDC or TDC. May this started happening as you suggest because one of the valves is not closing properly so it can't get a full combustion. When I had the head off I looked for cylinder wall and head cracks but did not notice any.

It's evening now and I just went out and checked the spark and it's great. Nice whitish blue thick jumps and I can hear the air snaps. I put in a fresh plug and unfortunately it did not tighten to a stop so the threads are now hosed. I've got to pick up a helicoil kit.

   I feel a bit defensive about gas through the plug given some of the posts above returning me to a possible carb problem.  I’ve picked up number of snowblowers from people who want to get rid of their machine so give them away or sell them for $50.   

 

  Today a person was selling an older Toro 724 for $25.  Those were very well made and dig into the end of the driveway pile very well unlike the lighter new machines.  Chances are always high if the engine is ok the rest can be made to work very easily and without much expense.   Today was a good example of using gas through the plug as a fast check on things. 

 

   The first thing I do when I get something like this home is check for spark and I do that quickly by dumping gas in the plug.  People generally are dumping these because they don’t start or run well because of carb problems.  Most have been sitting around for a few years and never had proper maintenance.  The gas in the tanks is usually old or dried up.  The carbs generally have varnish crud buildup or white cake buildup.  The carb jets are usually screwed up from tinkering so there’s no sense in pull starting till my arm falls off or heating up the starter until it melts trying to start the thing.  Dumping a bit of gas in the plug lets me know there’s spark and the thing can usually be made to run if it fires up well.  As long as I get a healthy sounding combustion there’s hope to go further. 

 

   If I get a short run of good fires it’s very positive.  I used to at this point put gas into the tank and try to run.  Over time I’ve found that sometimes some of these things would run but very soon develop gas related problems.  It was sort of a waste of time to put gas in the tank as I’d have to later drain the bowl, line and tank which is messy.  I found it was better to assume dirt everywhere so now if I get a machine to fire well I just take off the carb and clean it.  If the gas tank has a lot of crud I’ll drain the line and tank and flush it out with a garden hose. 

 

     I should add that I did a compression check right after I got the run of good combustions which on this machine was a not so great 75 cold by the hand pull.

 

   I’ve found the majority of these machines don’t need a rebuild kit, just a through cleaning.  So today after getting a short run of good combustions I pulled the carb and gave it a good cleaning along with the tank and line.  I put the carb back on and it ran rough and hunted for several minutes but settled down and ran fine. 

 

   I got in the habit of using gas through the plug often as a quick check I guess because I’m always worried about spark and the pain in the neck of pulling the covers and removing the flywheel to get at the ignition area.

 

   Today’s combustions with gas through the plug were similar to the usual I get with an engine that is healthy.   They were quite different than the stubborn 5hp that has the wimpy combustions.  I’ve pretty much given up on that unless I can figure out how to check for a sticking valve which was suggested.  Other than that the only thing I can think of is to take out the valves and inspect the underside and the seats.  So it’s sidelined for consideration. 

 

    I’ve got another just like it, another old Ariens ST520.  It was a free rig as it would not start for the owner.  It got the gas through the plug treatment and it’s compression test was 145 so impressive.  I pulled the carb right away and cleaned it along with the gas tank and it been a great starter ever since.  It also had healthy combustions on it’s initial test. 

Tecumseh engines have a compression release, don't wory about the compression.

Take the bowl off the carb, the bowl nut is the inlet for the main jet,  take a piece of wire from a wire brush and clean the holes out with it, top and sides, then blow through it with carb cleaner.  I think that is all it needs.  timing is nonadjustable on 95% of the engines that TECUMSEH makes.

just put it back together. and run it..  let me know what happens.

Good luck

Friiy

   Most second hand older engines I've seen don't have compression release.  The ones that do test around 45psi but I'm not sure how consistant that is.  What is consistant is wet and dry test the same on the ones I've tested with compression release.

   Maybe you did not read the top posts.  I'm just giving a test to the engine and not looking ot make it run.  The carb may be all screwed up.  What I'm looking for is healthy combustions by dumping gas directly into the plug.  That should happen.